On 4hr EASY but fussing at breast- is he getting enough??

[Mackjack]

Hi there,

So, DS is just over 18 wks and has dropped to a 4hr EASY just over a week ago (with a little encouragement from me) and lo and behold, 3 days later (whisper it) he slept through the night for the first time - great -  and has done each night since (so far!!!). So he's having 4 feeds a day now and no DF (this is exactly what DD did too). But, he's getting really fussy on the breast and I'm terrified that he might now not be getting enough.

Basically, he starts off feeding well and then I feel the let down and can see he's taking good deep sucks but a few minutes later he starts biting down, pulling and rubbing his face right into my breast. His legs are kicking and he seems really frustrated. I keep swapping breasts at this point and he'll latch on but keeps doing the same thing. Also, he's started to get very easily distracted when BFing which doesn't  help.

Yesterday morning I felt like his first feed of the day wasn't very good as because he's only just STTN for a few days, I still feel very engorged in the mornings and after his first feed, I still felt quite full and engorged - I would've expected that to be relieved by his first feed. He seemed upset and hungry 3.5 hrs after that feed so I fed him again. Then in the evening, I gave him his final feed with the usual fussiness and tried to feed him again just before I put him in his cot as I felt his feeds that day had been very fussy. He wouldn't' take it. I put him to bed and he really started to cry - when I went into him he just smiled at me. This really confused and panicked me as he's never done anything like this before. So I got him up and tried feeding him again and this time he took a big feed and went to bed fine with no fuss.

Tonight he cried and protested when put to bed for a few minutes and I was about to go and get him but he fell asleep before I got there so I'm thinking this was probably because he was massively OT today as his naps were awful ( a whole other post!) Also, on another note, when his naps are bad, the last feed of the day is sometimes only 3.5hrs after the previous as I just cannot keep him up any longer - do you think that matters?

So could the fact that he's gone to 4hrs and then dropped his NF mean that my supply is less? Or is he just at that fussy stage and getting impatient when my letdown slows?

[Mackjack]

Sigh. Just woke at 22.00 screaming. Thought it might be OT but he wouldnt settle so I fed him. Am I going to have to go back to 5 feeds? Why did the 4 feeds get hin to start sleeping through and now just a few days later its not working? Is this just a badly timed GS?How would I fit in 5 feeds when his A time is 2hrs- I really struggled before we moved to 4hrs (even though his naps are often rubbish!)? And would he get enough from 5 closer together feeds rather than 4 more spread out bigger feeds?Aaaargh, this is doing my head in!! So many questions and guess work! It's times like this I feel like giving up the BFing!

[Mackjack]

He woke again at 4.15. OH tried settling. Didnt work. I have him half a feed. Didnt work. Have him full feed and he finally settled. Have just woken him for the day at 7.10 and am feeding. I dont know what the hell to do today. Youre probably thinking "just follow his cues" but he never gives any hunger or tired cues so I am constantly guessing and therefore getting awful naps (since 7 wks) and now a messed up feeding routine....this baby is breaking me

[*Liz*]

Sounds to me that he is so hungry that he is guzzling the milk then making himself all windy, so stopping the feed earlier than he should. Your breasts are likely pretty full with the routine change.

Did you jump to 4hrly feedings? You might need to transition slowly ie 3hrs 15 for a few days etc. it creates a mini cluster before bed but most BF babies don't mind  .

It's a while since a BF but lots of hugs. I think BFing is very hard on us ladies.

[Mackjack]

I did jump, yes. But because he started sleeping through a few days later, I thought I'd done the right thing...obvs not? I'm not sure that it's wind - he seems more frustrated than windy?

[Mackjack]

...thank you for your response by the way. And the hugs. I reeeeally need the hugs at the moment.

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

(((Hugs))) the sttn could have just been a coincidence too...hard to say with these babies! If it was down to a growth spurt perhaps he needed the sleep due to that? None of mine were able to do a 4 hr routine really while we were mainly bf. 

[Mackjack]

Could be...but now I feel lost.when on earth do I feed a baby who doesn't show hunger cues??

[Mackjack]

To make matters more confusing, I kept him up 2hrs15 this morning as I'm experimenting with A time as he always has 30/45min naps. He's slept through the 30/45min mark which is great but now its nearly 4hrs since his feed - so I dont know whether to wake him?

[Mackjack]

I woke him when it got to 4hrs. Hes having a better feed although still pulled a bit on the first breast. Not sure what to do for the rest of the day in terms of gaps between feeds....

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Maybe the good rest is key to getting good feeds (easier said than done I know!!) Hmm maybe try for 3.5 hr spacing?

[Mackjack]

Could be, Masyn. Today, I lengthened his A time to 2hr.15 and it *seems* to have made a big difference to his naps. I had to wake him from his first nap at the 4 hour mark and feed him. His second nap he woke just before the 4 hour mark and seemed upset and sleepy - and then was sleeping on the breast. And I've just put him down for his evening cat nap after almost 2.15 too. This is a breakthrough for us as normally he fights his naps and wakes at either 30/45 mins but each nap today he has fallen asleep within minutes and there's been no midpoint wakeup. So because of the naps today, I've been feeding at 4 hours again. I figured I'd give it one more day and see how tonight goes. If he wakes again for feeds then I know I'm onto a wrong'un. Could the night wakings last night be because his naps were sooo awful yesterday (45 mins, 30mins and 15mins) he used up a lot more energy and so was just hungrier??

If tonight is awful and I have to think about feeding more frequently again, how will I work a 3.5hr EASY when his A time is 2hr15? Will he just have to have really short naps?? I'm torn between being happy that I could possibly improve his naps and terrified of starving him!!

[*Liz*]

If better naps mean he is calmer at the breast and take a full feed, then you might find he can do the 4 hr EASY, with a quick cluster before bed.

Basically if the E and S don't add up you will end up having to do one feed out of sync likely before a nap to make it all work. It is a bit of a pain, but usually disappears once they are on solids later.

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Yup what Liz said! Our feeds were quite wonky for awhile as the A times and feed times did not jive, did a lot of EAEAS to fit it in.

[Mackjack]

Ok, thanks ladies. Fed him at 6.30 tonight (3.5hrs after last feed as he'd just woken from his cat nap and seemed whingey which I took for hunger) - not a bad feed - and started another feed at 7.30...still going, hes taking looooads!