On 4hr EASY but fussing at breast- is he getting enough??

[Mackjack]

He fed for nearly an hour. To be honest I took him off in the end as he was falling asleep and my boobs were getting sore! Oh well, see what happens tonight and re-evaluate in the morning, I suppose. Thank you for all your help so far.

[Martini~]

MackJack... You can also consider DF. We finally tried it and all night wakenings stopped (I didn't know they are from hunger!) and he sleeps soundly ill 6:30-7:00am!

[Mackjack]

Hi Martii. Thats brilliant! Can you remind me how old your LO is please? What time  do you do it? After last night's mammoth feed,,DS woke at 4am for a feed. I know many mums would be quite pleased with that but I felt gutted. I'm really starting to struggle with coping with 2 children and I'm beginning to feel quite depressed. Every time I look at DD (who is nearly 4) I feel guilty about all the time I'm not spending with her and all the times she is pushed aside or has to wait for my attention while I tend to DS. I really thought things would start getting better by this point but I'm finding it harder.

[*Liz*]

Hugs  .

I do think it is very important not to spend too much effort trying to 'fix the baby'. They are tricky creatures, who don't respond well to our best efforts because things change so quickly when they are tiny. And those other siblings add in as well don't they??

I think there has to be more survival mode with number 2.

That really was a great night yk?! For a BF baby that was just great  .

[Mackjack]

I know Liz - I just dont cope well with the unpredictability of it all. And the fact he slept through most nights last week just feels like a massive tease. I try to go with the flow and get on with life but it always backfires. If I think to myself for example, right, stuff it, we will just go out all day and never mind if he has rubbish naps in his pram well, then, he's just miserable and difficult to manage and will have awful sleep that night. I really feel I can't win.

[Martini~]

The same with me MJ:).

So regarding feeding, DS is 14wo and is on 3-4h EASY. Feeds roughly at 7, 10:45, 14:30, 17:30 and 19:15 (top up before bed). Generally after naps and before BT. All of them are right now both sided. Than at 11pm DH does a DF (we introduced it 10days ago...?). Currently we use EBM as DF is done with bottle but we are using storage as I cannot pump enough milk during day for a full DF portion. So we probably will start formula supplementation soon but I am already fine with it (until now EBF).
Before introducing DF he was waking 22-23 (never done that before!), around 1-2am (for comfort...?), around 4-5 for feed (one sided) and from 5:30-6:00 his sleep was very light... And we also coped with couple STTN before but after 2 weeks of that it has stopped:(. So I introduced DF.

Now he sleeps soundly till 6-7am. When he wakes at 6 I am resettling (not always easy, but wakeup at 6 is better than wakeup at 4...). I also started no-paci training 2 days ago as I guess his morning "cannot-back-to-sleep-mummy" can be connected with paci addiction. Will see how it works.

Btw I also was so reluctant to introducing DF as I hoped that DS will manage 12h without feed at 3mo as other kids which I know! Stupid:). And I am aware that DF is an obligation especially if you BF or want to express milk for it but it worth a try and some effort as waking MOTN is much worse...

[Mackjack]

thanks for sharing Martii. Sounds like you have been busy! Oh yes 6am is definitely better than MOTN! Looks like a good routine. I do both side feeding too (well actually 3 or 4 sides -whatever I can get into him!) Can I ask - do you feed at those times because thats when he wakes from his naps? If so, if he has a short nap, when would you feed then?

DF is looking to be a good option only I would have to BF as I absolutely hate expressing and it takes me forever to just get one or two ounces.

[*Liz*]

I do understand, we do like to feel in control. Neither of mine were even close to STTN at this age, so I guess I just don't even think about it. Heck my 4 year old was up for an hour at 3am last night because she had a bad dream about insects, my 5.5 year old EW'd at 5am. I think even now we only get a full nights sleep 50% of the time  .

I ended up with a funny routine with DD ie it wasn't EASY, but it was pretty close to what a lot of 'schedules' are based on ie short am, long lunchtime nap, long A to bedtime. At about 5 months I got her onto a 2 nap a day thing, and the daft baby woke all night long!! If I needed to be out with DS I went in the am or pm so we could be home for the lunchtime naps for both of them. I don't mean flexibility in terms of going anywhere and doing whatever, I just mean a loose pattern that caters for the whole family as best as possible iyswim? The vast majority of babies develop a much more predictable pattern at about 5-6 mths, and it only improves after that as naps get consolidated and solid meals get added it.

[Martini~]

I started 3,5h EASY mainly because he wasn't hungry at 3h mark, secondly because he has increased his A time (when you have 1:45-2:00 A his naps even when good, had to be capped after 1:00 for feed and he was not hungry....?). I went cold turkey but he was ready especially for feeding. First day he woke after 50min from his 2nd nap - I was terrified... 1:30 till next feed! But we just managed to do it without any crying. He was not hungry.

Then morning feeds went into 3:45 break and it was also his decision, he just slept longer on his nap. Right now, when he wakes earlier from his nap, I just keep feeding hours strict so not to confuse him and he is fine with it. Only in the afternoon we have shorter breaks and I am fine with it, he is still taking full feeds and I guess he is tanking for night. Frankly speaking I am not even eager to go to 4h EASY and lose one feed, as I guess the more he takes during day, the less he will wake at night:). Btw at DF he can drink from 4 to even 7oz so I know that he needs this feed & needs more milk for night.

[Mackjack]

I know. I guess your 1st child sets your expectations. With DD I didn't know what the hell I was doing but somehow managed to get a child who slept through very early on and never woke for a feed again. Add she still sleeps brilliantly now. So I guess thats why I'm finding DS so hard. Cant handle the "one step forward, 2 steps back". Plus now DD is older I think i'd got used to life being normal and having some freedom again and now I'm in babyland again which to me feels like prison. Sorry to be so negative. I really want to enjoy this time in my life and I know I should but I just can't. I'm very grateful to have 2 happy, healthy kids and feel so guilty as I know so many people would love to have what I've got

[Mackjack]

Ok so you stick to 3.45Easy if naps go wrong except in afternoon. Seems a good tactic. I gave 5 feeds yday - 7, 11, 3, 6.30, 7.30. Just can't work out if I would be better off doing 4 feeds and making that last feed before bed 4hrs after the last or sticking with 2 cluster feeds at bed - not sure which would make him take more milk. It was when he was on 4 feeds that hee started sleeping through (until of course he didnt!)

[Shdef]

We tried a four hour routine a wee while back, because he was fussy on the breast and his A-time was really long. Result was reverse cycling. He fed every two hours at night for quite a while and it took some time to fix that again. A breastfed baby is certainly not getting enough on 4 feeds a day, and it will have a bad effect on your supply. If A-time is getting so long, you can try topping up before a nap, as suggested EAEAS.

The fussiness was more due to being too nosy than not being hungry  An EBF baby who is not yet on solids shouldn't be fed less than 8 times a day, says Kellymom and LLL. And every LC you will meet 

Tracy's breastfeeding advice is a little outdated now, but she would have adjusted it, had she still been alive

http://www.babycenter.com/404_whats-the-best-breastfeeding-schedule-for-a-baby_8940.bc

[Martini~]

Yep, Steffi also offers a good solution. Just check what your DS likes/prefers most.
Mine for example is refusing breast after A (1,5h-2h after last feed) and before naps as he is not hungry. On the other hand 4 feeds a day is really low number and I know children can cope with this routine but not all of them.

Btw Steffi, are you serious with recommendation of 8 feeds per day for a baby older than 3-4months? That's really a lot! I heard that 5-6 at that age is more common.

[Mackjack]

If I fed him before naps, I think I would worry that he would become a snacker. Maybe I will keep doing the 4 hr Easy but give 5 feeds with the last 2 feeds close together. I'm really tempted by the DF too...but scared in case a)he wakes or b) it messes up his night sleep...but I guess his night sleep isn't perfect anyway so what's there to lose??

Yes, I agree, 8 feeds sounds a huge amount for this age Steffi?!

[Martini~]

And do you have problem with settling him? Sometimes during DF my son opens his eyes, but at this age and being and independent sleeper, he is so relaxed with feeding that he just goes back to sleep very quickly, even during the feed:).