Help! Ready to give up on EASY with 4mo.

[thirstymama]

Hi there,

My DD2 is 4 months old today and I'm starting to feel like EASY isn't working for us so I'm hoping someone out there can lend some support and insight for what to do because I don't want to give up. I followed Baby Whisperer for DD1 and it worked like a charm (maybe she was more of an Angel baby than I thought!?!) so I think I know the method quite well. She is 4 years old now and is a fantastic sleeper, which I always had thought was because I had her on EASY from day one, it wasn't always easy , but once we got on a good rhythm she went for naps and bed time without a peep still to this day.

So DD2 has been a VERY different baby and like DD1 I have had her on EASY since pretty much day one. I think she is Spirited/Textbook and really struggles to drop-off to sleep. She is also quite mobile and I can no longer really swaddle her like I did DD1 (so sleep sack on tummy for naps, half swaddle on back for nights). Right now she is usually waking around 4-5am and awake but not crying but won't settle back to sleep for an hour or so. I read on these forums that this is because she doesn't have enough A time during the day but I've been trying to add A time to her daytime and now our naps have turned into a nightmare and she seems constantly OT (combo of not napping well, and being up in the night). I'm at a loss as to what to do. She's also rolling over and keeps pushing her body up when she's crying/struggling trying to get to sleep. When she was younger I learned I needed to side sleep her to access her back better, but now I can't since she's no longer swaddled. Tracy doesn't seem to talk about how to adjust teaching sleep without a swaddle but I can't find a swaddle that she wouldn't break out of and now it would be dangerous to continue to use.

I almost always have to help her drop-off to sleep for naps with Sh/P, but she's gotten quite good at putting herself to sleep at night. I should also add that feeding has been an issue with DD2 also, she eats very little/quickly. I started trying to keep her on EASY but since she won't eat much at a time I sometimes do a EAESY (depending on the first E, if she takes more than her average, I don't do another feed). When she was a newborn she wouldn't sleep more than 45min in bed but after A LOT of pat/shushing and changing her to her side, I can get a 2 hr nap out of her now in her crib.

So my main question is, what do I do about the A time at night? Do I do PU/PD if she is just making cooing or whining noises but not crying? Right now she has about 1.5hrs of A time, but I stretch her at times to 1.45 plus sometimes if I give her a feed before bed. If it's too late, I really struggle to get her down. Her current EASY is a variation of this:

E 8
S 9:30-11:30
E 11:30
S 1:00-3:00
E 3:00
S 4:30-6:00
E 6:00
A Family Dinner and Bath, Night routine
E 7:30
S 8

DF 11:00 ish (sometime she wakes)

Wake between 3, 4 or 5. If it's 3am, no trouble getting back to sleep. If its 5-6am she will be wide awake and smiling, but tired when she's up at 8am. If the first two naps extend to a 4 hour EASY the last one seems to turn into a catnap.

I hope I've given enough info on what is going on. I'm at a loss and totally losing hope. By this time with DD1 I had her worked out so that she went to sleep without crying. DD2 cries/rages a lot. My mother and husband think I should give up doing baby whisperer and just let her CIO or rock her or whatever but I don't want to do that yet. I'm praying someone out there has some insight, I'm going a little crazy over here!! I should add that her EASY is quite variable. She doesn't always have solid two hours of sleep, especially if I have to help her to sleep, or help her back to sleep. Will she ever STTN!?! She also has never really done more than 5 hours of sleep at a time. I'm getting pretty tired...

I hope someone out there can help! Thank you soooooo much in advance.

xo

[lauradj]

Don't give up hope!!  I'm sure you're going mental but I'll try to offer whatever help I can.  CIO will only confuse her, pleaseplease don't go that route.
First off, I just want to remind you that at your LO's age, 5-6 hours at a stretch is considered STTN.  Technically speaking, most nights she's doing it, yay! 
I wonder if your DD is having difficulty sleeping longer in the morning due to an earlier sunrise these days?  Perhaps her internal clock is early to bed, early to rise?  I mention this because the main issue seems to be her EW and her A times look pretty much on par for her age.  Have you tried 7pm-7am?  It's an earlier start for you but it might be more compatible with her sleeping.
If your DD is waking but isn't crying, you don't need to intervene.  Give her a chance to settle herself back to sleep.  Of course if she cries you need to go to her but chatting and cooing are ok sounds.  Just a few thoughts, I hope they help a bit!    Cheering you on with pom poms!   

[jessmum46]

Sorry have been struggling .  It sounds like you were blessed with a bit of an angel sleeper first time round so I can imagine it must be quite a shock to the system to have a more spirited baby this time.  Please don't take the crying/raging or the lack of consistent routine as a failing on your part - it very much isn't.  The majority of babies are not in a perfect EASY at this age, yes some textbook/angels will be but the very existence of the sleep boards on this forum is testament to the fact that most of us struggle along a lot of the time.  Have you seen the support thread for spirited babies?  Sleep and EASY support for spirited babies

Swaddling is by no means essential - I never swaddled DD at all (it's not actually recommended here in the UK due to the potential for overheating) and I agree if she's rolling it wouldn't be safe.  Shh pat can be adapted in all sorts of ways - it doesn't have to be the 'classic' technique Tracy described.  I used to rest a hand across DDs nappy area when she slept on her back and pat the hip/side furthest away from me.  Once she became a tummy sleeper I used to just rest a hand on her back.  Other people find stroking a cheek or hair to be effective - really it's just about doing something that you can gradually reduce

Great job on the 2h naps in the crib .  We had nothing of the sort at that age!  It's fine if you need to do EAESY sometimes - I'd just suggest adding a tiny A time after the second E e.g. a nappy change just to make the separation between eating and sleep.

Her routine/A times look pretty good on paper but I get the sense from your post that what you wrote isn't what's actually happening at the moment?  Is she actually taking all those naps when you have them on her EASY?  Or is she short-napping/struggling to settle?  If things aren't as the ideal routine, could you post a day or two of what's actually happening for us?  It may be there are some UT/OT issues that we can help you sort out.  Bear in mind that spirited babies often need longer A times and less sleep so it's conceivable she may need a boost in A times to 2h or even a touch more.

I agree with pp that if she's awake at night but happy, leave her to it, don't intervene .

(((Hugs))) we'd really like to help support you through this with gentle ways to help her be more settled and develop her routine if we can x

[thirstymama]

Thank you both soooo much for your replies! They gave me a few things to think about and since I have blacked-out the windows since it's getting light here around 4-5am, I also ended up doing a bit of PU/pd for an EW, and since then seems to settle faster. Her awake time has gone up to almost 2hours now, but still finding it really hard to read her sleep cues (I mostly go by time, since I'm not sure, she can be super OT and still smiling and happy).

For the past few days she's been doing 2 solid 2hr+ naps and a final cat nap. When does the catnap get dropped? Her A time in the evening seems short but it seems early to drop to 2 naps. But I never knew about spirited babies needing less sleep-good tip! She is very wide eyed!

Thanks again!!!

[jessmum46]

How are things? The catnap often goes at around 6 months - have a look here: All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months

[thirstymama]

Things are going okay but I just cannot figure this girl out! I'm having a really hard time reading her cues as often she is yawning half an hour into awake time after a decent 2+ hour nap. I have managed to extend her awake time to just about 2 hours (ignorning her sleep cues-which are subtle anyway) and I think we have done away with the A time at night (dare I speak too soon, this girl seems to do something different every day!). Sometimes I need to stay with her during a NW but can get her back to sleep without toooo much crying/fussing. I am going a little crazy though. The last three nights she has been really hard to get down to sleep at night and I'm really not sure why. I am getting discouraged with that because its been 4.5 months of having a wind-down routine, I've been pretty consistent and now we are on a 7-7:30 schedule instead of the 8-8ish. I don't know what I am doing wrong and I am feeling quite alone. Like I said before, my support wants me to just do the AP thing (rocking, driving...whatever it takes) so I'm left to do it on my own for the sake of consistency. DH is going away next week and I'm getting very concerned that I can't get DD2 to sleep very quickly. Two nights ago it took 2 hours, which felt like we were back to newborn stage. Is that normal for a spirited baby to take so long to drop off to sleep? I have to shush pat her to sleep every time now. Have I become a prop? I don't know what to do. Sometimes she's just rolling around, not sleeping, whining but not crying so PU/PD doesn't seem appropriate. On the plus side, she will STTN some days, not consistently though. Today's EASY went something like this:


3:45 E, diaper change
4:20 S
6:40am wake, but seem to go back to sleep til
7:10 E
8:30 E
9:00 S
10:40 wake, went quiet again til
10:55 E
12:30 E
1:00 S
3:00 E
4:30 E
5:00 S
6:15 E
A Family Dinner, Bath and Bedtime routine
7:20 E
7:45 Bedtime...shush pat til 8:15
11:00 DF

Also lately she has gone from 2x2hr + catnap to 3 x 1.5hr naps. If she has short 1st or 2nd nap, she seems to make up for it later in the day. But again, we are lacking consistency. You might also notice all the E's. That has been an issue from almost day one where she doesn't eat much, starting with her first morning feed she only eats for maybe 3-4 min, so I give her another feed before bed although I make sure not to feed her to sleep. I keep the lights on etc, then start the routine after the feed (although, she may think it's part of the routine). I still feel a bit guilty about all the feeds, but I have to let go a little and accept that that is the way we need to BF DD2. I think she's getting better at handling the let-down so maybe we can work on that later.

Any suggestions on helping her to drop-off into sleep would be welcome. I have never seemed to find that window with DD2, where she is quiet and relaxed when I put her down. If I try to slow down the wind-down she starts throwing her body around like she wants to go to bed, so then I start the shush-pat. Anyways, that's probably enough...another novel for anyone out there who might have some suggestions. I hope that all make sense. I feel like I'm blathering on...lack of sleep...I'm sure you all understand that!

Thank you so much for checking in! xo

[thirstymama]

I just want to clarify, it took 2 hours one night and I suspected teething, but I'm not sure. Since its been a bit harder to get her down but more like 15min which is long for her. Regardless, I have to pat her every sleep time and I'm worried I'm a prop now. So basically I'm looking for tips on how to get her to self settle more easily? Or is this something I need to accept that I have to pat her every night?

THANKS!!!

[jessmum46]

Sleep cues do get unreliable as LOs get older - I found I had to watch the clock much more and also found that DD often yawned more when she was catching up on sleep - probably because the adrenaline had worn off a bit!

It does sound like you've made a lot of progress overall . Well done you!  Spirited babies can be tough to settle though - especially if UT or OT is at play.  Looking at the day you posted my suggestion would be after two decent naps to keep the last nap to a catnap of 45 mins or less.  I think it's possible that the 1h15 nap was pretty much restorative which is why LO fought BT until 8.15pm (that's pretty much a full A time). 

With shh pat could you try slowing and stopping the patting just as she is closing her eyes rather than waiting until she is fully asleep?  Then gradually stop earlier and earlier?  That's normally how shh pat is weaned

Eating-wise, at 4-5 months my DD fed for maximum 5 mins per feed, only fed one side and that was a full feed for her.  The length of feed isn't a very good indication of how much LO is taking as they can be remarkably efficient eaters.  Does she display clear hungry cues after an hour or two?  Or are you just offering on the basis of a short feed?  If she's not interested immediately at the start of A time, have you tried doing an AEAS pattern instead where you feed about 30 mins into A time instead of at the start? 

[thirstymama]

Thank you so much for responding!!!

You know, I had thought about that last nap maybe being too long, I may try that. I think she moved to 3 naps early, and she may end up moving to 2 soon also...

She is a very fast eater, and doesn't really use it for soothing (and never took a paci). I would selfishly rather her eat at the beginning of her awake time, so I offer her a top-up at the end of awake time but now she's basically refusing the first feed, and taking quite a bit at the second. Sometimes I can't offer her a feed in the middle (ie. taking DD1 to preschool) and she is VERY distractible so I've been feeding her in her room in almost dark (she's even distracted by looking at me!). She's getting older, I should try that. I'm also just a bit worried she's not getting enough during the day, but it does seem like she either doesn't need much or is very efficient or both! She's growing ok so far.

I've started trying to leave as soon as she is quiet with the shush/pat. We're also dealing with her about to start crawling. She doesn't seem to want to relax when I put her down, so sometimes I just hold her in place to help her relax. Otherwise she is rolling all over and squealing and getting excited. It's kinda funny and cute actually, but not good for sleepy time!

Do you think my wind-down routine isn't sufficient if she's not relaxing to sleep? I can't seem to get her to relax before bed. She's quite the character!

Thanks again!!! xo

[jessmum46]

Ugh, the distracted eating phase it's so annoying!  It does pass eventually though.  How soon before the start of her nap is she eating?  Do you think she may be using it to help her calm down ready for sleep, even if she isn't feeding to sleep per-se?

With wind down routines I think you do need to experiment a bit to see what works for you.  I actually found a very short wind down and then giving DD space was actually was more effective for her than trying to get her into a calm/drowsy state.  So our wind down literally became up to room, dim lights, into sleep sack, into cot, I left.  She would go from wide awake to asleep within minutes and still does now.  Our BT routine is not very calming at all, DD runs and jumps all over the place, but again will settle to sleep within 5-10 mins of being left in her room.  The times she doesn't settle easily there is usually UT at play (if rolling/squealing/messing around) or OT (if moaning/calling out/crying) so it's worth considering those as well.