Can't figure out when to do naps for 8 month old

[Okiemomma]

My son is 8 months but he was 2 months early, so he is 6 months adjusted. (He is pretty caught up in development though.) I have him on a 4 hour schedule which works great but his naps are a mess.

Here's our schedule:

Wakes appx 6-7 am and he plays happily until his first bottle

E - 7:00am bottle
A - 7:30-8:15. If I push it any longer, he is a crying mess. He desperately wants to sleep 30-45 mins after eating.
S - 8:15 (asleep by 8:30) but only sleeps for 20-45 mins. Hour max. It seems he can't make it past a sleep cycle.
A - from awake time until next feeding
E - 11:00am bottle
A - 11:30-12:15
S - 12:15 same as first nap, lasting only 20-60 mins.
A - from awake time until next feeding
E - 3:00pm bottle
A - 3:30-4:15
S - 4:15 another short nap
A - until next feeding
E - 5:30pm - he usually wants a small bottle
A - 5:45-7:30pm
E - 7:30 bedtime bottle (usually a small bottle again)
S - 8:00 asleep easily. Wakes nearly every sleep cycle though. .  I also give him a night time bottle around 3-4 am.

As you can see, our schedule does not spell EASY. Please help!  We just started sleep training but were kind of forced into it when he started rolling around in his rock n play (we used that because he had bad reflux until a month ago).  He used to sleep through the night besides his night feeding when we would swaddle him and put him in the rock n play. His naps were still about an hour though. This week he got hand, foot and mouth disease along with all the other church nursery babies. And he got his first two front teeth. So, hopefully things will settle down for him soon?! Either way, I still need help with our schedule. Any tips on settling him between sleep cycles would be great too. Thanks!

[Jodes112]

Hi,

At it looks to me like your lo is ready for an A push, at 8 months most babies are on 2 naps, (some transitioning to one!) and at 8 months A time averages between 3-4 hours. Your lo seems a little on the low side. A 45 min nap also majorly indicates and undertired nap.

If i were you i would aim for something like-

Wu 6.30 (for example)

Nap 9.30- 11 (or as long as poss)

Nap 2.30- 4

Bed 7pm

If i were you j wiuld start by increasing that first awake and then this may alter the whole day, getting a better first nap because the first awake has been increased. So at the moment the first nap is at 8.30, you could try pushing that to 8.45 for a few days, if that goes well push it to 9 and so on.

What do you think x

[nevinsmama]

Agree with Jodes112, also, are you quite sure the Reflux is gone? Seeing THAT many NWs sounds like discomfort to me.

[Okiemomma]

Thanks girls! It seems strange to increase A time, though I knew that would be the suggestion for us. He is clearly tired much earlier but maybe I just need to get his body used to a new schedule. We will be heading out of town for the weekend, so I think I will wait to tackle a solid schedule when we get back.

Yeah, he is actually doing great without his reflux meds. He has been STTN (besides a night feed) for a long time. When I took Zantac away slowly, nothing changed with his night sleep. That lasted for about a month. Then this past week, he got sick, started rolling over in his rock n play, got two new teeth, we moved him to his crib and stopped swaddling. So we pretty much turned his world upside down. Besides the sleepless nights, he's doing really well now. Past two nights have been exactly same schedule. Down around 7:30-8:00, short wake and put self back to sleep around 10-10:30, wake around midnight not happy but goes back to sleep with me patting or pu/pd once or twice, then night feed at 4am. He's been sleeping so much later in the morning too, which is awesome for me. Any thoughts on his NW being so similar the past two nights? Seems it takes a cycle or two for him to get nice and asleep for the night. Remember, he's only been doing this self-soothe, crib, no swaddle thing for about a week so you're free to tell me things will just get better in time.

[nevinsmama]

Could just be a blip...have you tried going in an hour before he usually wakes and giving him just the most gentle rub or jiggle him to reset his sleep cycle? I know it is risky, just a thought and  I understand if you want to just ride it out.

[Okiemomma]

Ok, home from vacation (sleep was awful - son got snorkly and did not like his pack n play, so I resorted to just cosleeping the whole trip, which we've never done before and I don't plan on doing again unless a similar situation arises).

Can you girls help me figure out a good EASY for us? It should be so simple but for some reason it's not. He typically has a night feed around 4am, so wakes around 7-7:30am but doesn't want a bottle til at least 8am. Can anyone give me a schedule to try out?  Thanks!

Btw, he's sleeping much better. Still wakes once or sometimes twice before midnight but usually puts self back to sleep with some fussing and minimal crying (I try not to do CIO but also don't rush in to soothe right away bc he usually settles himself down.) He goes down with zero crying during naps. Usually still takes 30 min naps, but a few have been an hour long. It gives me hope that with a good routine, the naps could get better.

[Okiemomma]

Also, LO is almost 9 months old, but was 2 months early, so for sake of scheduling, maybe consider him as a 7 month old. He's developmentally caught up with his actual age, but I feel like he's always slept like his adjusted age. There's no way he can stay awake for 3-4 hours without being 100% overtired.

[nevinsmama]

OK, if you want to go by his adjusted age then I would go for a roughly 3 hour A and try for a 2 nap day.
Maybe:
7:A
10:S
11:30: A
2:30:S
4: A
7: S for the night/

This is, of course an ideal routine here. Some LOs will always have one nap shorter than the other and I think you just have to put up with it to a certain extent. I apologize for my absence, let me know how things are going!

[BabyY]

Hi OkieMamma,

My son has just turned 8 months old and I am struggling with pretty much the same problems you have listed: Early waker (5:30-6 AM) and short naps of 30 mins (unless I sit next to his crib helping him tide into the next cycle in which case they could be 60-90 mins) which makes it very difficult to establish a routine. He STTN for 10 hours flat and not a minute more.

Could you tell me what worked for you in helping your son sleep better these last few weeks? Any tips will be greatly appreciated!

[Okiemomma]

I'm so confused and I need help!! First question: 30 min nap means OT?  Always?  And 45 min nap means UT?  Here's what today has looked like. It was slightly different because he woke at 2am for a bottle, so he woke again at 6am for another bottle though he was obviously not ready to get up for the day.  Usually, he wakes at 4am for a bottle and doesn't get up for good until 7-8am.

6am - Wake
E - 6:30am - bottle (1/2)
A - short A time because he was obviously tired. Only let him stay up this long to see daddy off for his work trip.
S - 7:15am - back in crib asleep - woke 45 mins later.
A - 8:00am - 9:00am
E - 9:00am - finished bottle from earlier
A - until 10:00am
S - asleep by 10:10am. awake at 10:40am, exactly 30 mins.  I even tried to go in ahead of time and shh pat to sleep the second he stirred. No luck. When he noticed me, he grinned, flailed his arms and legs and was ready to play. I left him alone for 10 mins but he just played so I got him up.
A - 11:00am - 11:30am
E - 11:30am - full bottle
A - 12:00pm - 12:45pm.  I tried to do a low-stimulation wind-down from 12:45-12:55 to see if this helps the nap.
S - 12:55pm - awake at 1:35pm, exactly 30 min nap.  This is where we are now.  I've let him stay in his crib (he never wakes crying during the day).  Looks like after 10 mins of rolling around, he's back to sleep.  Maybe successful here.

So...what have I done wrong?  Seems like he might need short A times??  ***IF*** this current nap is a success (since he went back to sleep), what did I do differently?  I always leave him in his crib with hopes he will go back to sleep and this is the first time he actually has. Did the 10 min low-stim before nap do it?

I'm so desperate.  He's 9 months old and I feel like I spend half my day focused on getting him to nap/sleep.  (The other 1/2 is getting him to eat - always been a struggle.)

I try to chat with my friends about these things, and they seem to have never struggled with naps.  I just don't get what I'm doing wrong. 

[nevinsmama]

Maybe:
7:A
10:S
11:30: A
2:30:S
4: A
7: S for the night/

OK. I would try this, I would even go for closer to 3.5 hour A times given his age. Yes, generally speaking 30 minute naps are OT and 45 are UT, that said, my DD had this stupid 38 minute nap she would pull and i never did figure it out for sure! So your little guy could be an exception. I would keep in mind that starting the day with a silly short nap after an A time more appropriate for a 2 month old is going to cause chaos later on in the day as the OT catches up! He could very well be UT for the nap but OT from nothing but short naps all day. Hang in there, 8 months is a lousy time for sleep, it will get better! Want to tell us more about the feeding issues? I wonder if there is any discomfort in there?

[Okiemomma]

Thanks for the reply! Yes, that early morning nap was an anomaly for sure and was just needed that day though it did throw us off the whole day. Some background info: he was 2 months premature due to preeclampsia. He is fairly "caught up" with milestones but still acts very babyish in some ways, including sleep. Due to reflux, he has always slept in a rock n play until about a month and a half ago. When we would put him in the rock n play and swaddle him, he would often sleep all night long (the real deal, not just 5-6 hours) or wake for a bottle and go right back to sleep. Naps weren't always long but weren't so short either. Maybe hour naps or 1.5 hours at times.

Feeding issues: He had a feeding tube in the NICU, as most preemies do. Preemie moms believe this causes reflux and sometimes other feeding issues. He learned the suck, swallow, breathe early at around 34 weeks gestation and started drinking from a bottle. Came home at 36 weeks drinking fully from a bottle. But due to being a preemie, he was weighed and monitored weekly by a home health nurse. There was just a lot of pressure on forcing every ml of the bottle down him. In hindsight, the pressure of making him drink probably caused more problems, but when you have a 2 lb 15 oz baby at birth, home at 4 lbs, you do everything you can to pack on the weight! Then, he wouldn't start nursing well. I pumped for awhile but noticed his reflux was 100x worse with my milk so I stopped. Zantac helped with his spit up and pain. I took him off zantac about 2 months ago and he hasn't had any spit up issues since then. I still feel pressure to feed him the whole amount that I think he should have, but I try to be more relaxed about it since his weight is between 25-50% for his actual age! above 50% for his adjusted age. He's on solids and goes back and forth with this. He loves food and eats well, but then when teeth come in he refuses them, then starts being a pig again, etc.

With all of that said.... Here's the schedule we've been following and tweaking the past few days. First nap still needs work but yesterday his 2nd nap was 2.5 hours long!!! This mama didn't know what to do with herself!

Wake: 7:30am
E: 8:00am - 6 oz bottle
A: 8:30-9:30am - played on floor, nibbled on my breakfast with me (full awake time 2 hours)
S: 9:30am - read a book, sang a song, put in crib and fell straight to sleep at 9:30am
Wake: 10:15am, so 45 min nap
A: 10:15-11:30am - played
E: 11:30am - ate oatmeal and fruit with milk in sippy cup,  then 3 oz bottle
A: 12:00-12:30pm (full awake time 2.25 hours)
S: 12:30pm
Wake: 3:00pm, 2.5 hour nap!!!!!
E: 3:00pm - 5 oz bottle
A: 3:30-7:30pm - played, bought groceries, etc. Usually I will give him a catnap just because we haven't figured out naps yet and this is too long for him to be awake before bedtime, but we had friends over for dinner, so he just fought sleep and stayed up with us. He ate a really good dinner of solids at 6:30pm.
E: 7:30pm - 6 oz bottle, then I read him a book and held him upright to let bottle settle. He fell asleep in my arms and was put in crib around 8:00pm

What would you tweak to make this better, especially first nap?

Night times are bad the past few days, but his top tooth is bulging and showing through a little, so I'm sure that's why. Typically he wakes at 10:30pm and screams like he's in pain and starving. Then at 3-4am he wakes happy, drinks a bottle and goes back to sleep.

Also, we have our 9 month check up today and I will ask about the possibility of silent reflux and the need to restart zantac. I don't want to but definitely will if he still needs it!

[Jodes112]

Hi!

Sorry to just jump back in have not been on for a while and dont get much time! You have some great advice and just wanted to reiterate that you still need to stretch that A time. The first nap i could have predicted would be 45 mins when i saw that he had only been awake 2hrs (7.30-9.30) that needs stretching if i were you, i would push that A time. Push push push lol.

Good luck!

[Okiemomma]

Thanks for the help everyone! Can I get some help with our 2nd nap now? I think the first one is pretty good on most days now. His awake time is all over the board because we are still having difficult night, so I will list our schedule in segments instead of times.

Awake and play for 30 mins
Eat (in 2 segments about 30 mins apart. With reflux, he's always done this. Otherwise he drinks half the bottle and is hungry too early).
Play, including solid food, usually fruit purée and oatmeal - total awake time 2.25-2.5 hours. I've tried pushing this and end up with awful naps and a cranky baby.
Sleep - first nap is appx 1-1.5 hours! Some days it's short and I don't know why but he's been working on FIVE teeth over the past 4 weeks so nothing is fully consistent.
Awake and play until bottle time
Eat (again in 2 segments)
Play, including solid food, usually bits of normal food - total awake time appx 2.5 hours. I might need to push this because his 2nd naps are always bad, but he seems soooo tired after 2.5 hours.
Sleep - 2nd nap is usually only 30 mins. If first nap is bad, I sometimes get a good 2nd nap out of him.
Awake and olay until bottle time
Eat (again 2 segments)
Play, including solid food. He plays until bedtime, which is too late. We are usually running around with my 8yo stepson so sometimes he gets a catnap in the car in the evening.
Bedtime around 7:30-8:30pm

No way could we do any earlier bedtime unless I just am not involved with 8yo (not an option). So... I need to figure out a way to get the 2nd nap later and less awake time at night! Ideas?

Thanks!!! Just getting the first nap down has been great!

FYI, I've started him back on Zantac at night so hopefully that will help with night times. It's already helped get him to eat and drink so much better.