LOSING my mind!

[willowonyx]

My DD2 is a spirited almost 4 yr old (2 months) and is a very light sleeper who we have over the years have found needs less sleep and has LOTS of energy. This is not the first time I have posted on here about her but it has gotten so bad, I am at my wits end. She dropped her last nap over a year ago. Until about 2 months ago, she would go down for bed and stay there until her first NW. But now, unless she is completely exhausted, and that means having her do gymnastics, exercise drills, and jumping jacks before bed (for example), she will run around until 8:30 at night and not want to sleep. Then she wakes up anywhere between 3-8 times over the time of 11pm and 4am and then wakes herself up at 5:30 sometimes 6, but 6 is when my husband wakes her up for the morning. She ONLY wants me during those bedtime NW and will freak out if my husband or even my mom just talks to her. And since I wake up at 430am to go to work, you can imagine how tired I am even when I go to sleep at 9pm.

Now, methods to try to get her to stay in bed. The daycare teachers have tried to help us through this and about 1 yr ago when she started getting out of bed a lot again, started the "green and red card" system. If she got out of bed, she got a red card and then she was not allowed to do chores with the teachers during nap time (since she was the only one not napping). It worked most times then we would have NWs here and there. Over the last 5 months she could care less and we had to throw in there that she would have certain things at home taken away if she got a red, like TV time and electronics (which she loves). This does become difficult because her big sister has her time allowed on electronics. Now she couldn't care less about the cards and we have gone on to removing the only thing she seems to care about, her stuffed animals from her bed. Everytime she woke up she would have 2 removed, the last set would be her favorite ones she slept with. When she only woke one time at night, she would get back two etc...That worked for a couple of weeks. Now, nothing. The only thing we have not taken away is her blanket.

It seems she has a selective memory. She only remembers us telling her to not get out of bed for so long and then the cycle beings all over again. We remind her throughout the day (so do the teachers) and we talk to her about it well before bed (just like when we are doing the countdown for bed). Since she is a light sleeper like me we have white noise going in her room and always have. Her room is completely dark (we used to be able to close her door but now she MUST have her door to the hallway open as well as the one to the bathroom but she refuses for a nightlight in her room).

Any ideas? The next step is to remove me from my bed for as long as it takes for her to learn to settle herself without my help and only have my husband there to do it, but then would she become reliant on him? The positive reinforce things other people do would not work on her since she "forgets" about details so quickly. Are there things in or around her room that we could try?

PLEASE HELP! 

[~*Nicole*~]

Honestly, it sounds very much like two things are at play.

1. She is likely OT but can't settle. VERY much like my DD. I know it seems unlikely as she is running around and has tons of energy but my DD is exactly the same. In reality she NEEDS more sleep and to be asleep earlier, but I can never get her to do it unless she's strapped into a car seat and we're driving. The NWs, early wake up time, and the difficulty getting to sleep sound like my DD's classic behavior which because she dropped her nap and is pretty high energy was hard to recognize as OT but I now realize looking back that is was and still is often a part of our problems.

2. She isn't "forgetting" she is more likely testing you and your consistency. Another thing that is VERY much like my DD and DS. They do well one night or two and then it's back to waking, etc. If they fall back into old habits, I have to stick to MY part of the new rules or it will all fall apart and we'll be back to trying to get back on track again. They don't forget, but they do seem to hope that I have forgotten lol

Things that have helped:

1-Getting them very physically tired early on in the day and then being very relaxed later in the day. No electronics for at least one hour before bed. No junk food. Full bellies. Dim lights. Etc. We try to get outside or go to an indoor play place. Something with lots of climbing, running, etc. You are already doing a lot of this, but I couldn't tell at what time you did them and was wondering if it could be too near to bedtime? Might be kicking up her adrenaline or something and making it hard to settle.

2-Consistent bedtime routine, which I am sure you do, but the more we follow the same exact routine, the better it goes.

3-Being "strict" about bedtime rules. Recently I realized that I had to put my foot down. I told both LOs "If you get out of your bed. I will put you back into bed and leave. If you get out again. I will put you back and leave. If you get out again...I will shut your door." They needed to hear exactly what would happen and I had to DO it. The first couple of nights DS got out of his bed and room several times and I walked him back, put him in bed, and said something like "It's bedtime. Goodnight." One night I added on (since my DS yelled he wasn't sleepy) "You don't have to sleep. You can play for a bit or look at books. Climb into bed when YOU are ready and sleepy." Told DD the same thing. They have been much better since then. I also offered a sticker chart. If they filled a certain section going to bed well they could earn something. Taking things away didn't really help much, if bedtime didn't go well, they just didn't earn anything.

4-The more consistent bedtime gets, the better they sleep through the night. We have more NWs the more overtired they are and the later bedtime is and the more they "need" me to help them get to sleep. The earlier bedtime is and the more independent they are falling asleep, the fewer NWs we'll get generally speaking.

5-OH...and we have had fears recently. To help with that I had to do and say lots of reassuring things. Playing books on CD to listen to (distraction), covering windows, keeping nightlights on, and talking about having mommy and daddy and police, etc. to protect us and keep us safe. Just in case there is any of that going on. We also talk about other people we know going to sleep. "Yes, your friend Olivia is sleeping in HER bed right now. Yes, your friend so and so is sleeping in HIS bed right now. All little boys and girls are sleeping right now." And giving very simple explanations for any questions about noises, etc. Last night, for example, DS heard someone yelling. If I had said that I didn't know what it was he'd still be scared. So I said it was a mommy and daddy calling their much older, BIG kid to come home from the playground across the street. Rumbling can be the train going by or cars driving home on the highway or whatever. Scratching can be tree branches touching the house because birds are flying home to their nest for the night. Anything that can make things seem mundane and nothing to worry about and give a visual in their minds of something innocent. That seems to help my two.

It is very frustrating. I hope something in there might help.

[willowonyx]

Thank you Nicole.

The overtired issues is definitely very sensitive for her and an unknown territory. We have thought this multiple times and it ends up backfiring on us. Maybe a cap nap (if possible) in early afternoon may help but we would have to "test it."

If she is testing us, she is doing a very good job of playing forgetful, it is amazing. We do however always follow through with our rules and the outcome is never a pretty sight.

They get a lot of physical exercise at daycare and when she gets home, on most days (unless it is a bad day) she is still ready to run around. I HAVE wondered if her being extremely hyper in the evening as a sign of her being overtired or just her hitting her "second wind."

We are very strict and consistent with words and day/bedtime routine, have been since both girls were born. Some people have even criticized how structured we are.....but our girls crave it.

Yes, the fears thing unfortunatly has been introduced sooner than we would have liked, thanks to her bigger sister filling her head. 

Thank you for posting your thoughts, I have shared them with my husband.

One thing and tell me your thoughts, last night as a test, I did not sleep in our bed. So when she got up for the first time of the night, my husband ushered her to her room, tried to get her into bed, she refused and wanted to sit on the glider and he left her there and she eventually must have gotten back in her bed by herself and did not wake him again. The glider thing is something she always requests when it is him she gets and I am not around. I don't rock her to sleep in it, she barely rocks with me for 2 mins before wanting to get into bed at night, so it is not a prop.

[~*Nicole*~]

So when she realized just your husband was around she woke up less often during the night? But she did wake up the one time and want to sit in the glider and then found her way back to bed? I wonder if YOU are a bit of a prop if I read that correctly. Maybe something about what YOU do or say when she goes to bed that she is seeking out at night?

I think at this point she is probably too old for a nap...though if she were to fall asleep on her own, I'd let her. BUT I would try a super early bedtime if you have never done that before. I saw she was running around until 8:30 not wanting to sleep. What time do you do your normal evening routine stuff? Like, what time is dinner? Bath? Pajamas/Teeth? Stories/Songs--or whatever you do normally? The time you actually leave her in bed and the time she is actually falling asleep?

Waking up at 5:30/6:00? and being OT....I would think she'd be exhausted by dinnertime! LOL That 2nd wind probably IS a bit of overtiredness. But since it is likely built up and her body clock is likely set to a later bedtime it may be hard to combat. You can try a SUPER early bedtime...literally like 6pm, but if you do that I'd honestly make everything earlier if you could. Dinner, bath, etc. So her body goes into sleep mode earlier and she may fall asleep when she's actually tired before getting the 2nd OT wind.

OR you can try to move her bedtime earlier by 15 minute increments over a few weeks or so. I think if she has to be awake at 6 she should be sleeping nearer to 7 giver or take based on her sleep needs. Some LOs do a 12 hour night, some nearer to 10 but even still that puts her asleep at 8 and not running around.

The idea of removing you from your bed until she is sorted. Can you tell me why you being in your bed is the issue? Just that she seeks you out and not your DH? Or that she can see you or hear you there?

[willowonyx]

Sorry for the delay in replying.

You know, I wonder if I AM the prop. Both my girls "prefer" me much to the dismay of my husband. I am very strict and firm with her when she wakes me up, you would think that she would not want to deal with me. So, if she thinks I am not around, she only wakes up once (which I think is habitual 12:30am) and if I am not there to put her back to bed and only my husband yes, she does not go back into the bedroom to find me.

We have a strict routine. So, dinner is at 5:45, bath at 6:45, dressed, book, lights out-rocking for a few mins, then bed-that's where it can vary depending on if she behaves between getting out of the bath and getting in bed, usually around 7:15 but more closer to 7:30.

So, 2 nights ago, she did STTN and it was because she is fighting off a light virus, that is the ONLY time we have ever been able to get a full night. And then so last night, since she was all rested up from the previous night, she had a hard time falling asleep and then woke me up at 5am and was awake until daddy got her out of bed a little after 6. This is where we get the idea that she does not require a lot of sleep, I am the same way, if I get more than 7hrs at night the next night I have a hard time falling asleep and wake up a lot.

Anywho, any thoughts and ideas are appreciated! Thank you.

[~*Nicole*~]

Well, it does sound like she regulates her sleep as to what she needs. Have you ever tried a gro-clock or toddler clock? You set it for a certain time at night and it displays a moon or soft blue light at that time and then you set it for another time in the morning where it shows a sun and a yellow light. This way you can teach her to not leave her bedroom unless the sun is up? Then you can reinforce it by bringing her back to her room if she wakes up when the moon is still out. http://www.bubsngrubs.com.au/grobag-groclock.html  There are different ones available depending on where you live.

Both of my LOs prefer me over my DH as well. It hurts his feelings a bit but he understands that it is because I am home more often than him.

Also, have you tried telling her she doesn't have to sleep but that at bedtime she has to stay in her room? I really think that has helped us a lot over here. You can get one of the clocks and tell her that the clock will let her know if it is time to be in her room/bed and when it is time to come out. If she comes out when the clock says it is still bedtime, you will quietly escort her back, as you would anyway, but maybe with the visual reminder she'll stop coming out of her room as often because she will already know without going to you that it is still bedtime and she should just work on getting back to sleep? Seems like she is almost coming out to see if it's time to wake up and then you or your DH are telling her it's still nighttime by bringing her back.

Your routine sounds great. Does she ever fall asleep in the car? That's how I determine if my DD is OT or not. If OT she'll still stay awake at bedtime but WILL fall asleep on a longer car ride.

[willowonyx]

That clock is a great idea. I am going to look into getting one right now. She had me up for 2hrs last night and it all seemed like because she could not get tired enough to fall asleep with everything not being perfect. 

Usually she does not fall asleep in the car and when we know she is going to need that little extra sleep, it can become a battle in which we usually lose. She did fall asleep on Saturday in the car on the way to a friends house which I was not surprised, she was acting very grouchy. But then on the way to and home yesterday from grandparents, she did not close her eyes a wink.

[~*Nicole*~]

In that case, it does perhaps sound like she is a light sleeper with lower sleep needs, similar to yourself The clock may help and also talking to her about things she can do to help herself when she can't sleep so she doesn't NEED you all the time. Maybe even making a print out and talking about it before bed with pictures of some ideas she can try. Counting sheep, singing a song, checking her clock, adjusting her blankets, pushing play on a CD player for music if she likes to listen to music, or any other thing you can think of to try to give her the tools she needs to get herself back to sleep before having to get your help.

[willowonyx]

Well, I got a clock but it was not the one you linked to and I wished it was but that is not available in the states. I got one that lights up green for when it is time to wake up but stay dark the rest of the time. It has not been a huge success and she could really care less about it. She says she will stay in bed until "buggy is green" but then still gets out of bed between 1-4 times a night and requires me to come into her room and tuck her in and fix her blanket, just so etc....I am thinking her "spirited" nature is getting "worse" with age. She is saying everything is really loud now, she says that 85% of her PJ's hurt her so she freaks if I try to put them on her.....I am wondering if the white noise I have going in her room is too much or it just needs to be that. She wakes so easily that I have to have something or all the sounds in the house will wake her. I feel so helpless. I tried to talk calmly with her last night after she got out of bed within 30 mins of going down, after she promised and promised she wouldn't and then it took 15 mins of her debating with me and arguing with me that I was making her do this and cry and........

[~*Nicole*~]

Awwww. I am sorry the clock isn't helping. Perhaps I can get some other ladies who have used the clocks before come and share their experiences. They may have more advice to offer.

Also, the noises waking her, the feeling of her PJs, all of these type of things make it seem as though she is pretty sensitive or really aware of all those sensory type things. Have you noticed that about her in general? The volume/sounds of things, the feeling of fabrics, the texture of foods, being touched... Do any of those types of things seem to bother her a lot outside of bedtime?

I am going to see if I can get some more eyes for you. *HUGS*

[Tweakster]

Hi there, sorry to hear things are so rough.  First the Gro-clock can be ordered from Canada and delivered to US - it's not cheap however.  Could you link to the clock you got?

I know there have been penalties for getting out of bed but have you tried a reward system?  I think Nicole mentions it in her post.  Find something that LO really wants and use a sticker or some kind of reward chart for working towards that goal or item. 

There are definitely some sensory flags there.  Have you asked your doc about this?  It seems unusual for a kid to be getting up so much at that age.  Any chance of an occupational therapy evaluation?  They really help with sensory issues.

My son is like this...very much so with bedtime.  Luckily, once he's out for the night he's typically out but it's getting him to sleep that's tricky.  And he's a very early riser.  He's LSN and at 5 has finally managed to catch up to his 10 hrs nights.  It has been brutal as he's been on 10 hr nights in forever. 

I agree with all Nicole's suggestions, I'll have a think on it to see if I can think of anything else useful.  We use a Gro-clock with good success for EW but it sounds like NW are a real issue here.  And I agree, it's all about you, I think you need to be removed from the equation for a while.  We did that here, it was tough but I was getting imprisoned in his bed every night and it did me in.  Now he's going to be later I cannot be stuck in his room every night so I was really tough about it.  And lots of helping him find ways to calm himself down and sort out his own stuff.  Things like blankets, water, lights etc. are all done once and once only.

[willowonyx]

Sorry ladies, did not mean to leave you all hanging. We have been pretty busy lately.

So an update. Yes, she is still waking, at least once a night, and it is always for her to go to the bathroom. However, she is EW around 5-530am and if I am not in bed (which usually I am not, as I am gone by then), she will freak and cry....usually settles and gets into her glider to rock herself until daddy comes in to get her ready. She could care less about the clock until it turns green (when she is already awake) and then gets all excited about it being green. The positive reinforcement or treats for her do not work. She has a very selective memory and "forgets" even when it is in her favor. This is the clock we got:  http://www.amazon.com/Onaroo-Childrens-Alarm-Clock-Nightlight/dp/B00EAHSBV4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1406574200&sr=8-1&keywords=gro+clock

Oh, she is definitely sensitive to many things, sounds, light, etc, all the things you listed....but it is more prominent when she is tired and not distracted by other things.

Not sure what else to do at this point.....it is not horrible right now and probably will go back and forth with set backs.......

[~*Nicole*~]

I'm sorry for my delay. We were at the shore this last week.

Anyway, at this point, I honestly think the best course of action is to maintain as much consistency as possible. Stick with the routine you've come up with. Stick with handling her NWs the same way each time. Try your best to reinforce what you've been telling her about the clock, etc. I think it may be your only chance to get it to "stick" in her memory and knowing what to expect may give her comfort and in time may become a solidly, reinforced memory. Basically, the more consistent you are, the less she may resist in time because she knows pushing doesn't get herself too far and she may find comfort in knowing how things will pan out no matter how she changes.

I'm sorry she's waking so much. Mine both still wake for various reasons but they have gotten much better as they've gotten older. *knock on wood*

[willowonyx]

Ladies, it has gotten so much more worse. It had been getting "better" with her only waking me about once a night and usually it was to go potty and the reinforcement was that if she stayed in bed until "buggy was green" (the clock) then she could come to our beach vacation. Then vacation came, except for the first night, she slept all the way through until sunrise. And this was only accomplished by her being completely exhausted from playing on the beach and maybe because she slept in the same room as her sister (not in the same bed though).

Now we are back and the last 5 nights have been living hell. She is having a hard time falling asleep, she is waking 8-10 times a night, she is WAY WAY overtired and I am like a zombie about to fall off a cliff. Her attachment to me seems to have gotten worse and she "needs me" (her words) for her to even get back into bed. She is going into her sisters room and waking her up, she even has tried to sneak into bed with her and sleep there.

I have contacted a "child sleep doctor" and would pay whatever it takes to get this fixed now and for the long run......4yrs is too much.

I NEED support and help until we can get this fixed.

[~*Nicole*~]

I can understand needing help and I am so glad you are asking for some! It is much better to do that than to keep going and get more and more tired and stressed and frustrated.

I'm sorry it all went downhill after vacation. Seems she really needs some reassurances. I hope the sleep doctor can help you.