How to get our routine more consistent? Every day is completley different.

[Honeymonster]

Hiya folks.. We've made some good progress in LO a self settling and generally we get through most days without any major tears of OTness.. However every day still looks so different and it still seems totally hit and miss as to whether she'll sleep a longer nap or a 45/30min nap. With outings etc. interrupting our days can I ever hope for a 'to the clock' sort of schedule? I'm going back to work 2.5 days a week in 7 weeks and grandparents will be watching her so I'd love to be able to say.. Her nap times are x y and z. Obviously things will change slightly but it'll make things a lot easier if I could firm up these naps.

She can last about 1hr 45 in the morning but We very rarely get a long first nap which makes me think UT but she just looks so shattered in the mornings I havnt had the guts to push her A time. She's usually yawning and rubbing eyes after about 1hr! Today for a trial I put her down after 1.5hrs and she woke happy after 45mins. If she's had a short first nap then she manages about 1.40 until next nap and will sleep for 2 hrs usually. But then our longer nap is out the way too early and she can't manage until bed with just a 45 min catnap.. But if I do two or one longer nap she doesn't go down well for bed.

Our day starts at 7.30ish and she usually goes to bed at 7jusy now as she's OT.. She usually wakes once for a feed and no dream feed but recently (like the past two nights) has woken twice.

Should I try and keep pushing her first awakening even though she looks so shattered?
She's 20wks (so 5months on the 5thof july) and was 2wks over and weighs 16lb2 so is a big girl. I'd be more than willing to cancel outings for a bit if I thought it would help us firm things up but sometimes I think maybe I should just accept it's going to change every day. Trouble with the current set up is I end up feeding her early so she's full for next nap but she can easily manage 4 hours. She's sleeping so well at night for her age- could she be getting enough sleep and needing less daytime sleep?

[Honeymonster]

Oh I should also say the other day I accidentally pushed her morning A time to 2hrs10 as was on the phone and person wouldn't stop talking and she was def OT seeming as had a wee mantra cry and first nap she almost always goes down chattering.. But she still woke up after 45mins.. And just chattered to herself

[little_hoss]

following because i'm interested in the response

[Fede]

Hi! My son is 5 month and I also have got this sensation... when you stay at home sometimes things go well... right naps, etc. When we go out he doesn't sleep in the passeggino so he comes home really tired and it's hard to make him sleep. I wonder when things will change a bit.
I tried to stay home but naps are never the same and if there's someone at home except for me or my husband it's almost impossible to make him sleep...

[Honeymonster]

im bumping cos things seem to be getting worse on the Nap front and bedtime is also getting worse so really need some help I think. She used to go to bed easily and wake after 45mins and a quick cuddle and that would be her for the night she'd go back down but the last few nights this waking after 45mins is extending and shes needing resettled a few times..

ive given her some early BT's as she seems OT by bed but maybe should be squeezing another nap in and extending BT?

I'm going to post the last two days EASY and hope someone can help us.

yesterday:

A.7.30
E 8
S.9.10-10.00 (she seemed shattered so tried putting her down early but she woke happy)

A.10
E. 11.30
S. 11.50 -1.50 (woke screaming then ressettled by AP at 45 min mark to get longer nap)

A1.50
E. 3.00
S.4-4.30 in buggy

E.6
Bed .6.45

woke at 7.30 and wouldnt stop screaming so took her out of the room to calm her down and kept up for 45mins then ressetled to bed.. she went to sleep right away quietly then woke at 9pm screaming.. chancged nappy and back in cot and she went to back to sleep herself quietly again. woke at 1.30 for feed and 6am then slept until 7.45am.

So today decided to try and stretch first awake time as we havnt had a 6am EW for ages.

A 7.45
E.8
S. 9.35-10.10 ..woke with a tiny moan but happyish.. not sure if this it OT or UT.. always seems very tired by first nap, lots of yawns and burying head into me. to be honest she seems tired all of the first A time.

A10.10
E. 11.30
S.11.50-12.35.. woke with a little cry but was no way going back to sleep. tried to cuddle and she just pushed against me and looked around. seemed very tired as soon as she got up though.

it all went to pot from then.. tried to feed at 2 so shed  be full for a nap but she wasnt hungry. went out in the buggy  to try and get her to sleep and she wouldnt

E at 3.15.. only took a tiny bit
S (eventually. 4.30-5.10)

E.5.30 and 6.30

Bed. 7
woke at 7.45, mantra cry and back to sleep then woke screaming ten mins later and i cuddled back to sleep....

our days typically look like one of these two each day. its been 2 weeks since i got a first nap of more than 45mins and that day was a 1.45 A time.

shes 20 wks.

Any advice greatly appreciated. i feel i should keep pushing first A time but worried shes getting a build up of OT and i'll make it worse! i know i need to be able to stretch the naps to get her to bed without being OT.




E

[Honeymonster]

and we've just had another scream awake... thats most of the week its taken her 3 sleep cycles to properly settle for the night.. this is no use. :-((

[creations]

Hi there.
I think you are right to be extending the first A time. At 5 months A would be roughly 2hr to 2hr 30. My DS was 13 days over and always had an A time of a baby 2 weeks older than his real age, have you noticed similar with your DD?
I'd suggest an A of no shorter than 2hrs and possibly needs more (up to 2hr 30 which would be like a 5.5 month old although of course the times are just guidance).
Seeming to be tired for the first A can be habitual, she is used to getting a nap early so is readying herself for that nap, goes down ok but then wakes after a short nap. Two things; she needs to be tired enough to need a second cycle and she may well need help to break the habit of waking after 1 cycle.  I'd try W2S starting at 30mins and continuing to shush/pat right through the transition into deep sleep, 20-30 mins.
Even with a short first nap getting the nap later in the day will help with the afternoon/evening problems of how many naps to try for.

Although EASY is about following cues it is also about setting a regular routine that is suitable for her age and needs - she needs your help to do that and isn't going to do it on her own.  You can continue to shift things gradually (but don't go too slowly or the problem will continue) or you can teach her the routine in a more head on way setting nap times for a few days and sticking to them regardless of how long she sleeps eg
WU 7.30
A 2hr
S 9.30 - 11.00 (so you would stay in her room attempting resettle until nap time is over)
A 2hr (counted from 11am rather than from when she wakes from the first nap)
S 1.00 - 2.30 (again you would stay in her room supporting her until nap time is over)
A 2hr
S 4.30 - 5.00 CN
A 2hr
BT 7.00

In reality this means her A time can go way over the guidance A time for age, whilst you set the routine. If she only slept 45 mins for the first nap her actual A time is going to end up 2hr 45 and she is going to be very tired, possibly OT for the second nap. If she has OT WUs from the nap you resettle throughout until nap time is over.  This is hard work and I would suggest preparing yourself before you decide to do this as it is pointless to go through it if you give up half way - for example she may well cry and be upset when you keep her in her room trying to resettle for the rest of nap time and it's pointless her crying and you struggling with that if you don't then see it through.

I would suggest before you go ahead to decide when you want to go out and about, what suits both of you. Taking her out at different times every day is going to keep throwing your routine up in the air but staying home can mean you are quite isolated. I really needed the mum and baby groups to keep me sane so I worked it my choosing ones which happened at roughly the same time and worked a routine around that. We only went out and about in the afternoon until he turned 1yo and dropped to 1 nap when we switched to morning activity groups and afternoon at home for the nap.

I will also say, between 3.5 and 5.5 months our routine was a mess!  4 or 5 CNs every day!  However rough it is, you are never alone, others have been through it and still going through it, and you WILL get through it. Deep breaths.
hth

[clazzat]

I'm afraid I'm not so good at reading EASY schedules and calculating how long they have been awake, but I thought I would share what worked for my lot and see if you think it could help you.  I must say that I think the unsettled evenings and nights sound like a build-up of OT, maybe from you pushing the a times, so it might be worth trying to get a bit more day time sleep for a few days and see if that helps.  I must confess that it is a little while since mine were that age, so I might be a little off on the timings, but hopefully this can give you an idea:
WU 7am, feed
Nap 1 8.30/8.45-10, feed
Nap 2 11.45/12-2, feed
Nap 3 about 30 minutes somewhere between 4 and 5 (awake by 5)
Feed at 5 and 6, then asleep for 6.30ish

I did sometimes find that it helped to give a small top-up feed at about 11 to make sure they made it through the long nap in the middle of the day.  I found that this worked, more or less, for all 3 of mine (with our fair share of short naps and tricky spells!), and it worked for me to be able to plan things and get out to activities etc.

From about 5.5-6 months I found that nap 3 became a problem - they would normally sleep for it as it was generally a buggy nap, but it did tend to interfere with bedtime.  Having said that, if they didn't have it then they would be OT at bedtime and that was just as much of an issue!

Hope some of this helps.

Posted with creations - I did find that the morning a time was much shorter than the others for a long time.  It can be habitual, but I know that for mine it was just what they needed.  In contrast, they coped well with a long afternoon a time quite early on.  Perhaps you can try one suggestion for 3-4 days and see if it helps, and then try the other for 3-4 days if it doesn't.  It does take that long to see a change, so you need to be consistent for those days to see what is going to work for your lo.

[creations]

I did find that the morning a time was much shorter than the others for a long time.  It can be habitual, but I know that for mine it was just what they needed.

Oh yes, some LOs do great with a shorter first A whilst others prefer a longer first A. Mine it was longer first A.
I would say though that I'd look for the first nap to be a decent length to judge the preference for longer/shorter first A.
It's possible to bring the first A to 2hrs and it still end up being the shortest A of the day iyswim, if the others are more suited to 2hr 15 (either now or over the next couple of weeks).

[Honeymonster]

Thanks for taking the time to reply folks. Creations I do find with most things (wonder weeks etc) LO has beens acting more like her due date age but to be honest naps have never been consistent as I threw in the towel for a bit due to groups etc. as I really wanted to get out the house more so she rarely got to take a long morning nap and then was usually Ot for the second nap.. However I feel more happy in myself now and am just enjoying spending time with LO in the mornings and usually going out in the afternoons now. Also do a short sling walk during second A time to the shops to get dinner. Last time you advised me to extend a time it really helped but she seems to grow up so fast and just when one thing is working it all changes.. I think I need to keep on the ball with pushing the A time as she grows. She was doing 1.5 hr A time at 3.5 months so if be surprised if she needed less.. This morning when I stretched it a bit I played with her lots (mornings she usually does a fair bit of playing in her own while I tidy up) and she seemed to enjoy it so maybe she's also been a bit bored in the mornings. ?


I think I'll try first pushing the morning A time for a couple of days and then if we get a longer nap also subsequent A times too. Then I'll see how she goes and depending on the outcome either try clazzat's suggestion or set a more rigid schedule.. Or we may not need either if the a time stretch works.
I hear what your saying about the top up feed clazzat- I can usually tell if she's taken a full big feed she won't need it but if she's maybe had a night feed at 5 it all goes off and she'll need a top up after her 8am feed to get a good nap,

Thanks again folks. Will keep you posted!

[Honeymonster]

Ps.. You might find this amusing but I woke at 6today hearing her hungry cry on the moniter and OH's voice saying "good morning little lady" and the swaddle unzipping!!!!! He was on his way out the door to work.. I practically sprinted through the house whispering (loudly) "night wakening night wakening.. Don't talk to her, don't unswaddle...." Poor guy never gets to see her wee morning smiles and was quite gutted as I swiftly ruined his fun! She did well to go back to sleep after her feed :-)

[creations]

FX for you.

Posted same time as you - funny story

[Honeymonster]

So we stetched morning A to 2 hours today.. she woke up after 45 mins and was doing a little tired cry (not the usual chattering) a bit but didn't sound like she was going back to sleep. it wasn't an urgent cry more of a mantra but OH and I had to go out so had agreed if she slept through we'd wait but if she woke we'd get her up.. in peoples experience do LO's ever manage to get themselves back to sleep after 45mins with a mantra.. ive always thought with her she either sleeps through, or wakes.. very rarely does she go back to sleep herself.

but at the ages shes at do babies always wake fully between cycles?

should I stretch A a bit more?

Day then went from bad to worse.. didn't nap in the buggy at lunch even though we really tried.. random things kept waking her so she had a 3 hr A time.. ended up feeding her again then she finally slept in the buggy for 30 mins.. then a 45min nap when we got home at 5pm. tried to put her to bed at 7.20pm as she seemed knackered (after waking at 5.50) but it maybe wasn't long enough A time to be properly ready for bed.. even though she was shattered if you know what I mean.. as she started going to sleep and had her eyes closed then something must have startled her and she woke screaming 5 mins later!! wouldn't resettle so had to get her up, feed again and put back down. currently waiting for that 45 min mark!! I also get the feeling shes learning if she screams she'll get back up as she used to resettle with a cuddle but more and more is seeming wide awake when she screams awake and a few times we've ended up taking her out of the room as we're so not used to this screaming.. shes normally so calm. I feel she may be slightly starting to manipulate the situation.. or is she just very OT?... should I start pu/pd for 45 min awakening??does pu/pd work in these cases?

[clazzat]

Yes, they can put themselves back to sleep at the 45 min mark with a mantra cry.  I would say it is something they learn, but it is definitely possible, and I would never go to a mantra cry particularly if it is in the middle of the nap.  I do remember the excitement I felt the first time each of them put themselves back to sleep after a mid-nap wake - it will happen one day!

For my children at that age, 2h would still have been a long a, so I wouldn't be stretching it any further, although I know that it is not the same for everyone.  To me, the rest of your day strikes me as really ot, which with mine would have been too long a first A time and then too short a nap.  One thing that I did, which is slightly different from a lot of people, is that I didn't actually aim for 2 long naps during the day: the first nap was shorter, the second nap was the longest (aiming for 2-2.5h) and then the afternoon nap was the shortest (somewhere between 20-45 minutes at this age).  If you are finding it really difficult to get a decent first nap then you might find it easier to shoot for a 45 min Nap 1, then adjust the rest of the day accordingly.

[Honeymonster]

This is exactly what I had been doing clazzat.. Having our lunchtime nap as the longest and it meant I was only having to focus on extending one nap a day as opposed to staying in morning and lunchtime trying to get longer naps.. It had been working for about a week then suddenly the second nap started shortening too and I've been struggling more and more to extend it then the whole day goes off from there. Again last night she woke every 45mins for 3 cycles. I did pu pd sucessfully in a few mins each time which is good. The last time she didn't even open her eyes but was just screaming. Woke again at 11 and I thought she could be hungry but when I picked her up she went right back to sleep so I put her down and she did a wee mantra cry back to sleep and has just wiken now at 3am for a feed. So feeds wise that's back to a more normal (for her) longer stretch without a feed. I'm going to try with the 2hrs again tomo and see if she can get back to sleep after 45 mins. She's soo good at getting to sleep first time I know she knows how! :