How to get our routine more consistent? Every day is completley different.

[Honeymonster]

Hiya folks.. We've made some good progress in LO a self settling and generally we get through most days without any major tears of OTness.. However every day still looks so different and it still seems totally hit and miss as to whether she'll sleep a longer nap or a 45/30min nap. With outings etc. interrupting our days can I ever hope for a 'to the clock' sort of schedule? I'm going back to work 2.5 days a week in 7 weeks and grandparents will be watching her so I'd love to be able to say.. Her nap times are x y and z. Obviously things will change slightly but it'll make things a lot easier if I could firm up these naps.

She can last about 1hr 45 in the morning but We very rarely get a long first nap which makes me think UT but she just looks so shattered in the mornings I havnt had the guts to push her A time. She's usually yawning and rubbing eyes after about 1hr! Today for a trial I put her down after 1.5hrs and she woke happy after 45mins. If she's had a short first nap then she manages about 1.40 until next nap and will sleep for 2 hrs usually. But then our longer nap is out the way too early and she can't manage until bed with just a 45 min catnap.. But if I do two or one longer nap she doesn't go down well for bed.

Our day starts at 7.30ish and she usually goes to bed at 7jusy now as she's OT.. She usually wakes once for a feed and no dream feed but recently (like the past two nights) has woken twice.

Should I try and keep pushing her first awakening even though she looks so shattered?
She's 20wks (so 5months on the 5thof july) and was 2wks over and weighs 16lb2 so is a big girl. I'd be more than willing to cancel outings for a bit if I thought it would help us firm things up but sometimes I think maybe I should just accept it's going to change every day. Trouble with the current set up is I end up feeding her early so she's full for next nap but she can easily manage 4 hours. She's sleeping so well at night for her age- could she be getting enough sleep and needing less daytime sleep?

[Honeymonster]

Oh I should also say the other day I accidentally pushed her morning A time to 2hrs10 as was on the phone and person wouldn't stop talking and she was def OT seeming as had a wee mantra cry and first nap she almost always goes down chattering.. But she still woke up after 45mins.. And just chattered to herself

[little_hoss]

following because i'm interested in the response

[Fede]

Hi! My son is 5 month and I also have got this sensation... when you stay at home sometimes things go well... right naps, etc. When we go out he doesn't sleep in the passeggino so he comes home really tired and it's hard to make him sleep. I wonder when things will change a bit.
I tried to stay home but naps are never the same and if there's someone at home except for me or my husband it's almost impossible to make him sleep...

[Honeymonster]

im bumping cos things seem to be getting worse on the Nap front and bedtime is also getting worse so really need some help I think. She used to go to bed easily and wake after 45mins and a quick cuddle and that would be her for the night she'd go back down but the last few nights this waking after 45mins is extending and shes needing resettled a few times..

ive given her some early BT's as she seems OT by bed but maybe should be squeezing another nap in and extending BT?

I'm going to post the last two days EASY and hope someone can help us.

yesterday:

A.7.30
E 8
S.9.10-10.00 (she seemed shattered so tried putting her down early but she woke happy)

A.10
E. 11.30
S. 11.50 -1.50 (woke screaming then ressettled by AP at 45 min mark to get longer nap)

A1.50
E. 3.00
S.4-4.30 in buggy

E.6
Bed .6.45

woke at 7.30 and wouldnt stop screaming so took her out of the room to calm her down and kept up for 45mins then ressetled to bed.. she went to sleep right away quietly then woke at 9pm screaming.. chancged nappy and back in cot and she went to back to sleep herself quietly again. woke at 1.30 for feed and 6am then slept until 7.45am.

So today decided to try and stretch first awake time as we havnt had a 6am EW for ages.

A 7.45
E.8
S. 9.35-10.10 ..woke with a tiny moan but happyish.. not sure if this it OT or UT.. always seems very tired by first nap, lots of yawns and burying head into me. to be honest she seems tired all of the first A time.

A10.10
E. 11.30
S.11.50-12.35.. woke with a little cry but was no way going back to sleep. tried to cuddle and she just pushed against me and looked around. seemed very tired as soon as she got up though.

it all went to pot from then.. tried to feed at 2 so shed  be full for a nap but she wasnt hungry. went out in the buggy  to try and get her to sleep and she wouldnt

E at 3.15.. only took a tiny bit
S (eventually. 4.30-5.10)

E.5.30 and 6.30

Bed. 7
woke at 7.45, mantra cry and back to sleep then woke screaming ten mins later and i cuddled back to sleep....

our days typically look like one of these two each day. its been 2 weeks since i got a first nap of more than 45mins and that day was a 1.45 A time.

shes 20 wks.

Any advice greatly appreciated. i feel i should keep pushing first A time but worried shes getting a build up of OT and i'll make it worse! i know i need to be able to stretch the naps to get her to bed without being OT.




E

[Honeymonster]

and we've just had another scream awake... thats most of the week its taken her 3 sleep cycles to properly settle for the night.. this is no use. :-((

[creations]

Hi there.
I think you are right to be extending the first A time. At 5 months A would be roughly 2hr to 2hr 30. My DS was 13 days over and always had an A time of a baby 2 weeks older than his real age, have you noticed similar with your DD?
I'd suggest an A of no shorter than 2hrs and possibly needs more (up to 2hr 30 which would be like a 5.5 month old although of course the times are just guidance).
Seeming to be tired for the first A can be habitual, she is used to getting a nap early so is readying herself for that nap, goes down ok but then wakes after a short nap. Two things; she needs to be tired enough to need a second cycle and she may well need help to break the habit of waking after 1 cycle.  I'd try W2S starting at 30mins and continuing to shush/pat right through the transition into deep sleep, 20-30 mins.
Even with a short first nap getting the nap later in the day will help with the afternoon/evening problems of how many naps to try for.

Although EASY is about following cues it is also about setting a regular routine that is suitable for her age and needs - she needs your help to do that and isn't going to do it on her own.  You can continue to shift things gradually (but don't go too slowly or the problem will continue) or you can teach her the routine in a more head on way setting nap times for a few days and sticking to them regardless of how long she sleeps eg
WU 7.30
A 2hr
S 9.30 - 11.00 (so you would stay in her room attempting resettle until nap time is over)
A 2hr (counted from 11am rather than from when she wakes from the first nap)
S 1.00 - 2.30 (again you would stay in her room supporting her until nap time is over)
A 2hr
S 4.30 - 5.00 CN
A 2hr
BT 7.00

In reality this means her A time can go way over the guidance A time for age, whilst you set the routine. If she only slept 45 mins for the first nap her actual A time is going to end up 2hr 45 and she is going to be very tired, possibly OT for the second nap. If she has OT WUs from the nap you resettle throughout until nap time is over.  This is hard work and I would suggest preparing yourself before you decide to do this as it is pointless to go through it if you give up half way - for example she may well cry and be upset when you keep her in her room trying to resettle for the rest of nap time and it's pointless her crying and you struggling with that if you don't then see it through.

I would suggest before you go ahead to decide when you want to go out and about, what suits both of you. Taking her out at different times every day is going to keep throwing your routine up in the air but staying home can mean you are quite isolated. I really needed the mum and baby groups to keep me sane so I worked it my choosing ones which happened at roughly the same time and worked a routine around that. We only went out and about in the afternoon until he turned 1yo and dropped to 1 nap when we switched to morning activity groups and afternoon at home for the nap.

I will also say, between 3.5 and 5.5 months our routine was a mess!  4 or 5 CNs every day!  However rough it is, you are never alone, others have been through it and still going through it, and you WILL get through it. Deep breaths.
hth

[clazzat]

I'm afraid I'm not so good at reading EASY schedules and calculating how long they have been awake, but I thought I would share what worked for my lot and see if you think it could help you.  I must say that I think the unsettled evenings and nights sound like a build-up of OT, maybe from you pushing the a times, so it might be worth trying to get a bit more day time sleep for a few days and see if that helps.  I must confess that it is a little while since mine were that age, so I might be a little off on the timings, but hopefully this can give you an idea:
WU 7am, feed
Nap 1 8.30/8.45-10, feed
Nap 2 11.45/12-2, feed
Nap 3 about 30 minutes somewhere between 4 and 5 (awake by 5)
Feed at 5 and 6, then asleep for 6.30ish

I did sometimes find that it helped to give a small top-up feed at about 11 to make sure they made it through the long nap in the middle of the day.  I found that this worked, more or less, for all 3 of mine (with our fair share of short naps and tricky spells!), and it worked for me to be able to plan things and get out to activities etc.

From about 5.5-6 months I found that nap 3 became a problem - they would normally sleep for it as it was generally a buggy nap, but it did tend to interfere with bedtime.  Having said that, if they didn't have it then they would be OT at bedtime and that was just as much of an issue!

Hope some of this helps.

Posted with creations - I did find that the morning a time was much shorter than the others for a long time.  It can be habitual, but I know that for mine it was just what they needed.  In contrast, they coped well with a long afternoon a time quite early on.  Perhaps you can try one suggestion for 3-4 days and see if it helps, and then try the other for 3-4 days if it doesn't.  It does take that long to see a change, so you need to be consistent for those days to see what is going to work for your lo.

[creations]

I did find that the morning a time was much shorter than the others for a long time.  It can be habitual, but I know that for mine it was just what they needed.

Oh yes, some LOs do great with a shorter first A whilst others prefer a longer first A. Mine it was longer first A.
I would say though that I'd look for the first nap to be a decent length to judge the preference for longer/shorter first A.
It's possible to bring the first A to 2hrs and it still end up being the shortest A of the day iyswim, if the others are more suited to 2hr 15 (either now or over the next couple of weeks).

[Honeymonster]

Thanks for taking the time to reply folks. Creations I do find with most things (wonder weeks etc) LO has beens acting more like her due date age but to be honest naps have never been consistent as I threw in the towel for a bit due to groups etc. as I really wanted to get out the house more so she rarely got to take a long morning nap and then was usually Ot for the second nap.. However I feel more happy in myself now and am just enjoying spending time with LO in the mornings and usually going out in the afternoons now. Also do a short sling walk during second A time to the shops to get dinner. Last time you advised me to extend a time it really helped but she seems to grow up so fast and just when one thing is working it all changes.. I think I need to keep on the ball with pushing the A time as she grows. She was doing 1.5 hr A time at 3.5 months so if be surprised if she needed less.. This morning when I stretched it a bit I played with her lots (mornings she usually does a fair bit of playing in her own while I tidy up) and she seemed to enjoy it so maybe she's also been a bit bored in the mornings. ?


I think I'll try first pushing the morning A time for a couple of days and then if we get a longer nap also subsequent A times too. Then I'll see how she goes and depending on the outcome either try clazzat's suggestion or set a more rigid schedule.. Or we may not need either if the a time stretch works.
I hear what your saying about the top up feed clazzat- I can usually tell if she's taken a full big feed she won't need it but if she's maybe had a night feed at 5 it all goes off and she'll need a top up after her 8am feed to get a good nap,

Thanks again folks. Will keep you posted!

[Honeymonster]

Ps.. You might find this amusing but I woke at 6today hearing her hungry cry on the moniter and OH's voice saying "good morning little lady" and the swaddle unzipping!!!!! He was on his way out the door to work.. I practically sprinted through the house whispering (loudly) "night wakening night wakening.. Don't talk to her, don't unswaddle...." Poor guy never gets to see her wee morning smiles and was quite gutted as I swiftly ruined his fun! She did well to go back to sleep after her feed :-)

[creations]

FX for you.

Posted same time as you - funny story

[Honeymonster]

So we stetched morning A to 2 hours today.. she woke up after 45 mins and was doing a little tired cry (not the usual chattering) a bit but didn't sound like she was going back to sleep. it wasn't an urgent cry more of a mantra but OH and I had to go out so had agreed if she slept through we'd wait but if she woke we'd get her up.. in peoples experience do LO's ever manage to get themselves back to sleep after 45mins with a mantra.. ive always thought with her she either sleeps through, or wakes.. very rarely does she go back to sleep herself.

but at the ages shes at do babies always wake fully between cycles?

should I stretch A a bit more?

Day then went from bad to worse.. didn't nap in the buggy at lunch even though we really tried.. random things kept waking her so she had a 3 hr A time.. ended up feeding her again then she finally slept in the buggy for 30 mins.. then a 45min nap when we got home at 5pm. tried to put her to bed at 7.20pm as she seemed knackered (after waking at 5.50) but it maybe wasn't long enough A time to be properly ready for bed.. even though she was shattered if you know what I mean.. as she started going to sleep and had her eyes closed then something must have startled her and she woke screaming 5 mins later!! wouldn't resettle so had to get her up, feed again and put back down. currently waiting for that 45 min mark!! I also get the feeling shes learning if she screams she'll get back up as she used to resettle with a cuddle but more and more is seeming wide awake when she screams awake and a few times we've ended up taking her out of the room as we're so not used to this screaming.. shes normally so calm. I feel she may be slightly starting to manipulate the situation.. or is she just very OT?... should I start pu/pd for 45 min awakening??does pu/pd work in these cases?

[clazzat]

Yes, they can put themselves back to sleep at the 45 min mark with a mantra cry.  I would say it is something they learn, but it is definitely possible, and I would never go to a mantra cry particularly if it is in the middle of the nap.  I do remember the excitement I felt the first time each of them put themselves back to sleep after a mid-nap wake - it will happen one day!

For my children at that age, 2h would still have been a long a, so I wouldn't be stretching it any further, although I know that it is not the same for everyone.  To me, the rest of your day strikes me as really ot, which with mine would have been too long a first A time and then too short a nap.  One thing that I did, which is slightly different from a lot of people, is that I didn't actually aim for 2 long naps during the day: the first nap was shorter, the second nap was the longest (aiming for 2-2.5h) and then the afternoon nap was the shortest (somewhere between 20-45 minutes at this age).  If you are finding it really difficult to get a decent first nap then you might find it easier to shoot for a 45 min Nap 1, then adjust the rest of the day accordingly.

[Honeymonster]

This is exactly what I had been doing clazzat.. Having our lunchtime nap as the longest and it meant I was only having to focus on extending one nap a day as opposed to staying in morning and lunchtime trying to get longer naps.. It had been working for about a week then suddenly the second nap started shortening too and I've been struggling more and more to extend it then the whole day goes off from there. Again last night she woke every 45mins for 3 cycles. I did pu pd sucessfully in a few mins each time which is good. The last time she didn't even open her eyes but was just screaming. Woke again at 11 and I thought she could be hungry but when I picked her up she went right back to sleep so I put her down and she did a wee mantra cry back to sleep and has just wiken now at 3am for a feed. So feeds wise that's back to a more normal (for her) longer stretch without a feed. I'm going to try with the 2hrs again tomo and see if she can get back to sleep after 45 mins. She's soo good at getting to sleep first time I know she knows how! :

[clazzat]

There is a difference between going to sleep and resettling between sleep cycles, and it also takes them longer to figure out sleeping during the day compared to during the night - just developmental things that you have to ride out to a certain extent. It's also worth thinking about teeth at this age - they can start causing disruption even if you can't see anything happening.  There is so much going on!

[creations]

in peoples experience do LO's ever manage to get themselves back to sleep after 45mins with a mantra.. ive always thought with her she either sleeps through, or wakes.. very rarely does she go back to sleep herself.

but at the ages shes at do babies always wake fully between cycles?

Yes, as clazzat says they can put themselves back to sleep after a mantra. However, she is in the habit of waking after 1 cycle which is why I suggest using W2S to teach her to resettle at that transition. It could take just 3 days (or may need a few cycles of 3 days then a day off).  The mantra at 45 mins says to me that the A increase was better for her, made her tired enough to need the second cycle although as she didn't get it she became OT later.
Although Tracy advised to leave babies who are mantra-crying to self settle I learned with mine if he mantraed for more than say 2 or 3 mins he wasn't going to self settle (total independent sleeper but it meant something else was off and he needed a bit of help), I could leave him 45 mins doing it and in the end he'd escalated into an I need you cry.  So here if it went more than 2 mins I popped back in to give him a little pat/stroke or verbal reassurance and he'd settle fast to sleep.
Even adults wake at sleep cycles, about 5 or 6 times per night, we don't remember it but it is a brief awakening, we turn and go back to sleep. So waking is normal.

I agree you can set up a routine you are happy with, stick with a short morning nap if you like (in that case you would have a shorter first A) and go for the longer lunch time nap. It looks to me though like you could get that first long nap if you continue with the 2hr A for a few days, use W2S and see how things go. IMO trying to keep each day roughly the same in terms of nap length and where the nap is will help a lot to establish a routine so perhaps decide what you'd prefer before moving forward.

[Honeymonster]

Yipee... We're currently at 1hr10 and counting for first nap!! She didn't wKe at 6 this morning so only had the one feed during the night like she was doing before. Had 2 hr awake time this morning but also had a bath this morning as we're going out this afternoon. So she was pretty tired by nap time.. Was actually having a wee tired moan as I was getting her dressed.. Anyway she's still sleeping so that's good. I think tomo I'll try with 2hrs again or a tiny 5/10min push (as the bath must have shattered her more I think) and I'll see how she goes for a couple of days and if we don't get any consistency I'll try W2S!

If 2 hrs A time seems to be working better would you suggest a longer second A time?

[creations]

Great news!

I would imagine the bath would tired her, could be a higher stimulation level, or perhaps she finds it relaxing and readies her for a nice sleep.

I would give the slightly longer second A especially on a day the first nap has gone longer than 45 mins, you used to get a decent length nap there so I'd be looking for that again.

[Honeymonster]

Just a quick update for you both.. It's still a bit all over the place but getting much better. Yesterday's morning a of 2hrs got me a 45min nap with happy awakening so pushed it to 2hr 10 this morning and she slept for exactly an hour! It seems now she's caught up on her sleep from a bit of built up OTness I'm needing to push her A time even further. So after our 1 he nap I tried to put her down for lunchtime nap after 2hrs (as she hadn't had long in the morning) ... Wide awake and not having any of it.. So got her back up for some quiet activities then tried again after 2.5hr a time and we got a 2hr nap. She resettled herself with about 30seconds of mantra at the 45min mark! She then wasn't tired enough for her catnap so he just stayed up until bed and actually coped alright? What are your thoughts,, surely it too soon for only 2 naps? So today looked like this:

Awake:7.20
E 7.30
A7.20-9.30
S9.30-10.30
A10.30-1
E11.30 (top up at 12.30)
S1-3
E3.30
E6.15
Bed. 7

She went down well and wasn't too fussy (usually if she's been up all afternoon we get a bit of a frantic bedtime but she was happy after her feed)
Woke at 45min mark as she has been every night but didn't open her eyes just a little moan and I put my hand on her and she went right back off.

All in all she's def better from stretching her a times but how far should I go. It's still different every day.. Positives though are that she's shown she can both transition past 45mins and also put herself back to sleep too which is super!

[Honeymonster]

Oh and I should say since altering a times we're back to sleeping pm7-7.30ish am with one wake up for a full feed (any time between 12.30 and 3 depending in how she's fed through the day) I don't do a dram feed

[clazzat]

Sounds like it is going great so I would stick with this for a few days and see how it goes. Good news!

[creations]

Great news!
Sounds like she is very close to independent sleep with just minimal help with that first NW - Great!

What are your thoughts,, surely it too soon for only 2 naps?

It's not unheard of. If you take into account that the 3-2 can happen around 5 or 6 months and add to that your LO *might* have needs closer to 5.5 months rather than 5 months then I think it is a real possibility. Although the main thing isn't her age but what suits her, if she gets longer naps which are more restorative on just 2 per day then this is better than 3 shorter naps.
All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months
So, you'd usually look for an A time of 3hrs to achieve 2 naps and you are not there yet - such a long A time to bed wouldn't usually be suggested.  I would stick at the 2hr 10 another day and see if the first nap lengthens, then prob increase the A again.  Even if the first nap does not lengthen (which I suspect it will on the right time which may be 2hr 30 at a guess) it would likely be preferable to spread out those 2 naps to reduce the A to BT.
It is possible to move to naps on a 2hr 30 A time if the naps are 2hrs long and if (as with your LO) the night length is long eg:

WU 7.30
A 2hr 30
S 10 - 12
A 2hr 30
S 2.30 - 4.30
A 2hr 30
BT 7.00

If she isn't ready just yet you might need to wing it a bit over the next couple of weeks whilst she gets there. Maybe try for a short CN or do EBT at 6 or 6.30 if the first nap is only an hour and teh CN is refused to avoid another 4hr A to bed.
hth

[Honeymonster]

Yup 4hrs to bedtime not good... I'm currently sitting at 4am and after waking at 11.30 for a feed she's now chatting away and has been for 30mins! .. Hmmm! Not ideal since her nights had gotten a lot better!

[Honeymonster]

I rekon she'd prob be close to the schedule you've posted there creations.. Its very very restrictive though it feels since she'll only catnap out of the house. Currently we've been having her catnap out in the buggy and that's when I meet up with people.. Any suggestions as to how I could fit a catnap in if her a time is stretching ? Maybe do a longer day and just aim for a 45min first nap? I really don't want to go back to being stuck in all the time just to get a decent nights sleep (and obv a well rested LO which is important). I also worry that the chatty awakenings are due to a long nap so late in the day but this is where we got all confused before.. I think her OT awakenings are just chatty cos she's a happy wee thing!

[Honeymonster]

Or maybe cut naps to 1.5 hrs? Just saw this on the examples  board, something like this may work:
lockie is 6.5mo today. he's ebf & is taking solids 3 times a day now. his routine - on a good day! - is as follows (though we may be increasing solids soon as he always wants more!):

E-7:00am wake & bf 5-10mins
A-8:00am solids - rice cereal 2Tbsp
S-9:00am nap
A-10:30am wake
E-11:00am bf 5-10mins
A-11:45am solids - vegetables 2Tbsp
S-12:30pm nap
A-2:00pm wake
E-3:00pm bf 5-10mins
S-4:30pm catnap
A-5 pm wake
E-5:00pm bf 5-10mins
A-5:45pm solids - vegetables 2Tbsp
A-6:15pm bath, massage
S-7:00pm bedtime following bf top-up

Obv not the solids part.

Although she never really has ever taken a 1.5 hr nap so I'd have to wake her .. Feels mean if she wants to sleep till 2 hrs! Sorry for the multiple posts,. I'm keen to get this sorted as returning to work soon.. I know it will change again probably but would be good to get a bit more consistency first.

[Honeymonster]

Just had a 6am awakening crying.. Would only settle with a feed! That's technically 3 night feeds she's had.. We had got down to one again :-( I'm sleepy! .. Could all that really just be caused by too long and A time before bed? it's so complex.. What do people do who don't know about BW and don't understand any of this? I take back what I said about needing to get out and about.. I need my sleep more before I go back to work! :-)
Sorry your getting all my thinking out loud from the nifht!

[creations]

It's ok to get your thoughts out here, I often find it helps to think things through 'out loud'.
Sorry, I'm not surprised by the disturbed night, not nice for you

So, I think you really have to decide what you want before you move ahead. If it's ability to go out then choose which part of the day you are going to go out and try to make arrangements around that, planning for one decent nap at home and reducing A time before naps out and about so they are CNs, prob do 1 longer nap and 2 CNs. it really doesn't matter whether the long nap is morning or afternoon (unless it becomes glaringly apparent that it does matter by her behaviour and mood) but I really do advise you keep it regular, choose and stick to it.
If it's long naps then the chances are you are going to have to do shorter trips out so you are home for the naps. I don't think anyone here is going to tell you you have to do this, we all know getting out is good for our sanity and for LO to see the world.  Have a think. Her A time would be moving towards 2hr 30 rather than 1hr 45 so there is a chance to get out for say 2hrs between naps if you have things prepared for getting straight out the door as soon as she wakes (I used to stand next to DS's bed with the sling on and ready to lift him into it the moment he woke! Literally drove to a park fed and changed him in the open air so we could both see the sky, trees and hear the birds sing, then get him back in the car to get home!).
I realise this is not easy to decide on a plan. In the night you feel like naps are more important because you need your night sleep, in the day you feel like you need to get out.

I have no idea how others manage but I do know that a lot goes on behind closed doors that we are not always aware of. A mum I met IRL felt terribly sorry for me that DS would not sleep outside the house, she watched me rock and walk him in the sling trying to AP a nap whilst she just put her LO on the floor, anywhere, with any bit of cloth to use as a lovey (not even his own lovey!!) and her LO just self settled and napped silently. Amazing.  However during our chat I discovered that whilst DS STTN her LO was up 6 times a night and she was a wreck.  Other's lives with LOs are not always as trouble free as they may appear.

hugs

[Honeymonster]

Your so right creations. I need to think about a plan and stick to it and be consistent, the thing is I'm going back to work in august (just 2.5 days a week) and my mum and OH's mum are going to be looking after LO on alternate weeks until she starts nursery later in the year. So I need to think about what's going to work best to them too. My mum hates being stuck in the house but OH's mum is a bit less mobile and would probably rather be in more than having to push the buggy for catnaps. That's why I'm getting all stressed about getting some consistency before they start helping.. I had got much more relaxed about it all and although I was happy to begin with, things did start to slip with bedtimes and NWs.

Your also so right about what goes on behind closed doors- I have some friends I meet with from a baby music group and out of all their LOs, my dd is by far the best sleeper at night. Even the ones older than her have more night wakenings and they always comment on how relaxed and happy she seems all the time when we are out. Most of them have to AP for all daytime naps and I recognised lots of OT behavior whenever I'm with them that they don't always recognise.. It's all fine and good just now in the sun.. But what happens in the middle of a British winter when you HaVE to push a buggy to get a sleep!... I think I've just answered my own question! I'm really lucky to have a LO who will self settle and take good naps at home.. And because of this she also self settles well at night when on a good routine!

Can I ask if we did get to 2 x 2 hr naps what would be the next thing to drop as she moves onto a 3hr awake time ? Would the am one shorten first usually?

Thanks for all the support! Really appreciate it. Oh has just started a new job and is shattered coming in so gets totally sick of me going over and over what to do (plus he never does BT or NW just now so doesn't care so much) and all my baby mummy friends don't really believe in setting routines and are much more ATtachment parent inclined in their views so I don't really talk to them about it.. Plus I feel guilty sometimes (although I know I shouldn't) when they say their LOs are up so much in the night etc. when DD has been mostly great, xx

[creations]

It's a lot to think about and I can understand why you are trying to think of everyone's needs with you going back to work and different people minding her etc. Tricky, but try to think of yourself too LOs have a tendency to nap differently for other people so even if you had the 'perfect' routine in place it would likely get thrown up in the air. Try not to worry too much, she will be fine with her GPs

Once you're on 2 naps it should all settle down for a while. Hopefully you don't need to think about naps changing again for several months.  The 2-1 journey might begin around 10 months (but can be later) with one nap shortening. It doesn't matter which one, whichever suits your routine and LO's needs. For example because DS always had a great first nap at home (and we went out in the afternoon) I held on to his 2 hr nap which began as a morning nap and moved later in the day (increasing first A time) until it became an afternoon nap.  During the transition there would be a CN in the afternoon/eve and BT moved a little later until CN was cut and BT moved earlier.
However it is totally fine to keep an afternoon nap, in this case you'd cap the morning nap shorter and shorter allowing more A time before second nap and again shift BT if needed.  Neither is 'right' or 'wrong'.

[Honeymonster]

Ok today went totally haywire with two 45min naps and a 20 min cat nap.. Despite pushin a times a lot.. Maybe I've pushed them too quickly but I managed to get her down to an early bedtime of 6pm,, which I've never managed so hopefully tonight won't new to disastouris. I'm going to enjoy the weekend as have realities from Australia visiting and try not to stress too much then start with a much stricter approach on Monday and stick to it for a whole week and see how we go. Do you think it'd be too much just to push morning A right to 2.5hrs and then hold to see how we go? I feel if I'm going to try and extend naps consistently all week if anything it's better if she's slightly OT than ut as if she's ut and I try to resettle her she'll just get frustrated.

To make things worse we're just coming into a wonder week.. Or wonder month it seems from my app.. Suddenly she hates getting dressed and undressed and has been super fussy all day.. Is it a bad time to get strict with our routine?

[creations]

I'm pretty sure Tracy shifted naps (A time) by 30 mins so I don't see a problem if you want to do that - you are already aware of the chances of OT, I think Tracy used it to her advantage in that eventually they sleep and the routine is established. I would try to resettle if you get 45 mins WUs and use W2S to help transition if needed too if you are going to really go for it next week.
Good luck. And have a lovely weekend with your relatives

[Honeymonster]

Sorry I keep posting more questions creations.. Don't worry if you don't have time to respond. We've been really struggling to get a long first nap and I'm wondering if her long night affects this? She ends up having an early bedtime as she's OT and sometimes wakes at 6 for a feed but I treat this as NW and put her back down as other times she sleeps right through to 7.30- she always goes right back to sleep but this often throws our feeds off for the day a bit so Today she woke at 6.30 for a feed and I just kept her up and put her back down after 2hrs 20 and she's currently been sleeping for 1hr 30 .. The longest we've had in the morning for a few days. I'm just thinking that although she's OT and needs and EB her long night then affects th next days naps? I didn't really want to get in the habbit of getting her up at 6 each day though as we are aiming for a 7.30-7.30 day as that's what will fit in with work etc. and often she does sleep until then. Hmm so much to think about. I've been thinking about it and ideally I'd love her first nap to be the longest followed by either another long nap later or if we did have to get out in the afternoon then occasionally this could be replaced by two shorter naps and hopefully that wouldn't throw things off too much? Maybe if she wakes after 6 I should just be getting her up and hope this slowly extends to a bit of a lie in? Don't want to make a rod for my own back though? Hmmm.. Need to get a clear plan in my head for Monday!

[creations]

I would choose a time you call night and a time you call day. In your case I think 6.30am/7.00am looks like a reasonable 'day' so if she wakes at 6am I'd just resettle, feed if needed yes, maybe she would take a smaller feed or go off to sleep with shush/pat?  Even if it's a full feed and throws off the feed times I would still treat it as a night wake as you have been doing. So pick a time and stick to it.
At WU offer a feed then count her feed times from then, even if she doesn't take a full one first thing when she wakes, a top up is fine.

I wouldn't try to reduce her night to get her to nap - it's more that you need to get her tired enough for the nap. So a long A or same length but more stimulation (either mental or physical or both) in that first A time.  Maybe after getting up earlier the 2hr 20 A was just right. Maybe 2hr 20 would be right even after a later WU - you have to experiment with it and see...or it might be that a 2hr 30 A is going to be right. Sorry I don't have the answer, increasing the day quite dramatically is just what some need whilst it would be unsuitable for others so it's down to your mummy instinct and experimentation to see what works.
I really think you are getting closer though, don't you?

[Honeymonster]

Yeah your rifht.. Def getting there.. I'm not great at all this trial and error and having to wait a whole day to try again if it all goes wrong :-) ha ha. Oh well I have a few weeks until I go back to work to get a bit more sorted. I feel a slight nap obsession creeping over me again,. I need to chill back out :-) she's such a good wee baby regardless of how often she's up in the night or how often she naps. I'm lucky really. Have a nice rest of your weekend. X