5 mo old - only wants to eat every 5 hours - not ready for 5 hour EASY?

[Laboroditsky]

Hi there - I have a LO, totally touchy, silent reflux (on meds) and milk protein allergy (on elemental formula).
We did good with EASY from about 2-4 months. And here is where I am now struggling....

1. For the last 3 weeks or so, she only eats when she is sleepy. I know that everyone says "Well, she will eat when she is hungry". However, she has gone 3 days only getting about 1/3 of her usual intake, and she is a very light eater to begin with. So feeding her at least semi-asleep is what we have been doing. And how to work THAT into EASY, I am not sure. Could the bottle be becoming a prop at this point? Perhaps. However, she naps exactly the same way with or without the bottle.....for a very short period of time.
2. She has been only wanting to eat every 5 hours or so for the last week. I think that she is naturally transitioning to fewer feeds with more volume. However, she is NOT ready for a 5 hour EASY routine, as I find that she is totally tired after a 2 hour wake period, and certainly is NOT napping for 3 hours at a time. (Lately it has been 30-40 minutes at a time)

So......I am at a loss as to how I can go about trying to re-establish the EASY method that we were working with before??
Any help would be greatly appreciated -
From a Mommy who is going slowly but surely just a little nutso!

[jessmum46]

If she's only had a third of her usual intake and has been extra sleepy are you sure she isn't unwell?  That would be my first worry I think  . Are you looking out for signs of good hydration ie plenty of wet nappies?  Might be worth having a doctor check her over if it's been quite a sudden change in her feeding habits and milk intake.

If you're happy she's well - does she fall asleep on the bottle?  Could you post a typical day in EAS format for us?  How many oz does she take at a time?



 

[Laboroditsky]

We are regularly cared for by a doctor, pediatrician and pediatric dietician. I have an appt with our dietician in 3 days, just for a check up and weight check.

We only let her go a few days with that little of an intake, I was attempting to get her to eat after sleep rather than have her basically asleep for a bottle. Now I am feeding her when she is drowsy to ensure that she is getting enough. She is getting enough wet diapers, she has lots of energy, she is happy, and she sleeps fairly well through the night. As far as being "happy" that she is well -- I have ALWAYS struggled with the stress of having her eat enough. At 5 months I still record everything that she eats, and if she is not getting much, I count all the wet diapers as well. I think it is weird...it seems abnormal that she should eat only about 1/2 of what the "average" baby her size and weight would, but because she checks out healthy, the doctors don't seem worried at all.

I offer her 6oz for the 3 bottles during the day and 5 oz for the 2 bottles she has during the night. (11pm and 3 am). She rarely takes the entire of any of the bottles. On average she takes may 21-25 oz per day....She has ALWAYS been a very light eater, we have always struggled for her to eat enough for even what our dietician instructs for the minimum hydration requirements. With all of that said, every doctors appointment has gone well, she has checked out as a healthy happy little girl, and at her last appt she was in the 25th percentile for weight! I have asked all of the experts that we deal with for any ideas on how we can possibly get her to eat more, and for advice on why she will only eat while sleepy, and have always been told - "just do what works".

I have no EAS to post, because I am feeding her in conjunction with naps. She will usually take the bottle and quit eating before she is fully asleep. However, I will usually hold her until she IS fully asleep, or very, very drowsy, and attempt to feed her some more. This is the only way that I can get her to eat more.  This leads to days with no real routine at all..... I am not sure how to even begin to get on track at this point.

[jessmum46]

Great that you have so many people looking out for her . It sounds like she's doing just fine with her weight, it doesn't really matter what volume she is taking if she is well, happy and thriving.  Averages are just that - averages.  So if she is just a small eater but otherwise well then she's getting all she needs.

Don't worry if your day doesn't have an EAS pattern, just keep track for a day or two and then post here what happens.  It at least gives us a starting point to look at A times and nap lengths even if it's more of an AES. 

Given she is checking out healthy, I guess my suggestion about feeding when drowsy would be to feed her until she finishes as you have been doing, then instead of holding until she is fully asleep and trying to feed her some more, try to put her down and use shh pat to settle instead.  I understand your concern about getting enough milk into her, but I think by really pushing the milk intake before sleep you will be shooting yourself in the foot as she definitely won't be hungry when she wakes.  What do you think?

[Laboroditsky]

Okay - So here is a pretty good example of how our day usually goes:

WU - 6am (This is what time she WAS waking at. For the last week it has been closer to 5/530. However, we have been treating that like a night waking and not going into her room - unless she starts to cry - until 6 am)
A - 6.00 - 6.45
E - 6.45 solids (she is just introduced, so is eating very little right now
A - 7.00 - 7.30
E - 7.30 (usually takes about 2 oz)
A - 7.40-8.30 (Here, I will start to put her down about 8.20, and feed her the rest of the bottle)
S - 8.30-9.15 (her morning nap rarely exceeds 45 mins.)

A - 9.15 - 12.30
E - 12.30 (as she goes for her nap, she will usually take close to the whole bottle - 6 oz)
S - 12.45 - 2.30 (her afternoon nap usually is around 1.5hrs)

A - 2.30 - 6.30/7.00 (Bedtime routine starts around 6/6.30, depending on her sleep signs.)
E - 6.30 (again, at bedtime she will usually take close to 6 oz)
S - 6.30/7.00 - 5-6 am (with 2 feeds, DF @ 11, DF @ 3 - she rarely wakes up for these, and takes 3-5oz)

SO.....WE struggle with the "E" (of course) but I also think that her daytime naps might be part of the problem because she does not seem to want to get a lot of daytime sleep. We are also struggling with EW, and again, I think that this comes from the issue of the daytime naps.  I have been keeping a close eye on her as she goes for her naps, and I am finding that even with the bottle, she is not FULLY asleep when I put her down. Perhaps she is a little MORE on the drowsy side, but when I put her down, her eyes do open, and she does stir. I have also been trying a little of the "wake to sleep" method with her naps. At about 30-40 mins I have been going in and rousing her, just slightly. Yesterday afternoon this seemed to work like a charm, as she napped for 2.5hrs and didn't wake until 6 am today, unlike her 5/530 waking we have been dealing with.

[jessmum46]

Does she wake happy from her morning nap?  I'd be tempted to push her A time a little.  The fact she can do the same A time again after only a 45 minute first nap and do a good nap for you suggests she can probably handle it.  Does she ever have a catnap in the afternoon?  Just strikes me that 2.30-6.30/7 is a long time for her age and that might be causing some of your EW issues if she's OT going to bed.  I would aim for a CN of 30-40 mins if you can get one, otherwise have her in bed for the night much earlier, say 5.30/6pm.  What do you think?

[Laboroditsky]

She DOES wake happy. I can say that no matter how long she sleeps, she always seems to wake up a happy little girl.

Everything always changes........today she napped for 1.5hrs in the morning and only 45 mins in the afternoon! Oy Vey!

I was wondering about pushing the A time in the morning  - I can certainly try that. It would also push the E farther away from the S.
I want to do a CN in the afternoon. I was thinking that around 4:00 try for 30-40 mins - This week has been rough as we only have one car and I have been driving DH to work (I was starting to feel a little trapped without any wheels to go out!) but we are getting a second car tomorrow so I will no longer have the restriction of having to load the LO in the car to pick him up at 5pm.

She did have a small CN (it was about 25 mins) this afternoon at about 3.45 - so maybe that will make a difference?

[jessmum46]

Fingers crossed for the night!

On a regular basis if her second nap ends around 2.30 I'd try for a CN around 4.30/5pm - you may find 4pm is too early.

[Laboroditsky]

Hmmm, the last time that she napped after 5pm (it was right around 5 and we were driving home) we have one HECK of a time getting her to go to sleep, so I think that it might be too late for her. However, she had a nap until about 4.30 today and she was a breeze to get to sleep. so maybe aiming to have that CN end about 4.30 will work? WE also pushed her bathtime to 6.30 - putting bedtime around 7pm. This is in the hopes that she doesn't wake up at 5 am!
Oh, and last night she had a party in her crib from 11pm - 2am. No crying, almost no fussing (she got a little animated once and I just went in and gave her the soother back) just playing and having a jolly good time. I did not even go in there (Other than the once for the soother) from 12.30 when DH woke me so that he could get some sleep for work and 2 am!
Oy vey.

[jessmum46]

That could definitely be a sign of UT and needing to increase A times.  You're in 3-2 nap transition territory - have you read this?  All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months. You will probably need the CN for now until you can increase your A times earlier in the day, but it should be gone within the next month or so.  Let us know how you're getting on

[Laboroditsky]

OMG. That described what we are going through - exactly! For the last 3 nights she has been a NIGHTMARE......... In fact, tonight we are now working on 2 hours to get her to go to bed.  She did NOT CN, but she DID have her last nap end at 2.30 - and also had an earlier morning nap. Looks like I really have to work on that morning nap and getting her first A time of the day pushed further!  I had NO CLUE that the 3/2 nap transition was now(ish)! Seems like she must really be ready for this change, as what we are doing now is NOT WORKING anymore..........DH and I are getting to our wits end at this point! 

Gosh I sure do just hope that working on pushing her A times is going to start to get us back on track! Just when you thought you had it all figured out, they go and get themselves ready for some big change, don't they!

[jessmum46]

Absolutely!!  But yes I think pushing A times is the way to go, we got in an awful mess at to age too and with the help of the ladies here made it through.  And so will you

[Laboroditsky]

OKay. This EW stuff is going to be the death of me. And it is even worse for DH....(he is NOT a morning person. At least I am an early riser myself - not 5 am, but early)
I am trying to get that first nap of the day pushed back so that she is not waking up from her second nap by 2pm. Right now, when she wakes at 5 am, she is happy as can be and we are just leaving her there. How do I incorporate that into the A time before her first nap? I am shooting for my day to be like this:

WU - 6:30 (This is currently happening at about 5 am - like right now she is having a super fun time in her crib all alone!)
A - 6.30 - 9.30
S - 9.30 - 11
A - 11-2
S - 2-3:30
BT - 6:30

I also worry that she is just NOT a baby that needs those 12 full hours of sleep............And if not, should I just try and push the A a little more even? Slowly work her up to 3.5hrs? (She has always been ready for the bump in A time a little on the early side

[jessmum46]

What's actually happening with your day currently?

How you approach the EW is up to you really.  I always counted A time from the time I first heard DD in the morning as I found this got us the best naps and the best chance of (eventually) breaking the EW cycle.  But some people count A time from the time they get LO up - I would have thought an hour and a half awake in the crib would be too long to do that though  the other approach I've heard is to count time awake in the crib as half A time, ie 5-6.30am in crib = 45 mins of A time. 

Just a thought but while she is waking so early would you be prepared to say start your day at 6am, rather than 6.30am with a view to pushing out the day (a bit like DST) when you get the routine more settled?

[Laboroditsky]

If she wakes at 5 am, I do start the day at 6.00 instead. The hope is that she will eventually get herself to 6.30 - however, I am okay with 6 am. 2 days ago I actually just started her day at 6, and even though she was up at 5, I still put her for her nap at 9. She had 2 great naps, and a great night, but still woke at 5.15 this morning. However, with a replace of her soother and a gentle pat, she was back to bed. Now I had to do that twice, but in the end, she really WOKE for the day at 6!! I would call that wildly successful for one day of swapping for only 2 naps! Both yesterday and today, she has been getting really good 1.5-2 hr naps with NO settling at any time. Working up to this I was barely getting 45 mins out of her,,,,,poor thing wasn't even the least bit tired yet! I just hope that this is the start of a pattern that will help her continue with the good sleep habits and be the happy little camper that I had today.

Before switching her nap - I just went cold turkey - 2 naps only as soon as you refered me to that link - her days were totally erratic. She was napping maybe 45-1hr in the morning, another 45-1hr in the afternoon, and a small catnap in the late afternoon. It was ALL over the place, she was feeding either to sleep or once she was asleep. Now with the 2 naps, although we are currently on more of an: AEAS - she is eating an hour before going to sleep, so there is no nursing to sleep either! Oy, thank goodness for things like this so that poor FTMs can find this stuff out! And of course, I am sure that there are more tough days to come, but I feel like this is one situation that we have at least gotten a handle on, even if she still wakes up early. At least she is getting good sleep.