Can a too short last A time cause EMW? 22 months

[jcsmom]

My 22 month old DD has been emw waking for over a month and I cannot seem to work it out. I have read that a too long last A time causes EMW. I have read this in many places but surely at 22 months 4.5 hours to bed after a decent nap should not cause EMW. Right now my DD often only has 4-4.5 hours last A time after a 1.5-2 hour nap. She will wake chatting really really early some days and seem WIDE awake. Or seem wide awake in the middle of the night. I keep pushing her nap later as I have also read that this helps EMW but I am seeing very little difference. Right now our routine looks like this:

wu 6 some days 5:45 some days 6:30 but mostly 10.75-11 hours after falling asleep. She wakes chatty.
nap 1-2:30/3
bed 7 asleep within 5-20 mins.

Yesterday looked like this:
wu 6
nap 1-3
bed 7 asleep 7:15 but she woke at 4:15 again chatty and would not resettle. It took me until 5:45 to resettle and today looked like this:

wu 7:30
nap 1-2:40 (she was well and truly shattered here)
bed 7 asleep 7:15, again seeming totally exhausted b ut she was up for almost 2 hours last night.  Is this going to bite me in the bum with another stupid EMW as her day wasn't even 12 hours with a 1.75 nap? My guess is she will wake in the 4's or 5's again.

I am beginning to wonder if our EMW is not OT afterall but rather UT from too short until bed and too long until nap so she crashes. Then she is UT at bedtime due to the long nap but OT overall.  We seem to get into this rut quite often and I cannot seem to work out why. Is she UT or OT? If I move her nap back she begins to wake even earlier. What's a good routine at this age? I don't even know anymore!

[jcsmom]

Just as suspected she was up and chatting at 4:15-5:45! Managed to nurse her back to sleep something I haven't done in months. She then woke at 7:40. It's now almost 1 ans she's singing away in bed. Do I need to cap? I find any sleep after 2:15/30 causes nws always as then her A to bed is too short. She also does better on a shorter day and bed by 7. Ideas?

[Buttonbobs]

Sorry we missed you honey.

Yes OT can cause EWs but happy chatty EWs and similarly mannered NWs can also be UT. It may be a developmental thing or teething too. Have you got any other signs of teething? You could try medicating to see if it makes a difference?

Otherwise, if you don't think it's teeth or development, then it might be a move towards a nap dropping. Have you read this thread:
The 1-0 transition...Advice and Tips to help you through.

It sets out really nicely your options at this point. Remember this is a long transition so it won't involve dropping anything immediately, but perhaps a move to a shorter nap slightly later in the day with a later BT, or just a capped nap and longer night generally.

What do you think?

[jcsmom]

Thanks for helping you guys have kept me sane for 22 months!
The last 2 days:
Wu 7:40
Nap 1-2:40
Bed 7:30 asleep 8
Emw 5-6 singing chatting but again settled with some help
Wu 8!
Tried nap at 1:15 but nothing. So did a nnd. Had her in bed at 6:30 and she was asleep at 7. Wu was 6 crying. Does anything stand out? I am really confused. I don't want to nap cap if what I am dealing with is teeth or developmental. But I do find these chatty emw really odd.

[Buttonbobs]

With us chatty was only ever UT or teeth. Have you tried medicating to see if that makes a difference (try half an hour to hour before BT or nap time)?

[jcsmom]

We are getting canines. Yesterday she nappe 1-2:30 bed 7 sang until 7:30 then wad up singing from 3:45-5:45. Fell back to sleep until 7:30. I just put down at 12:45 and she was right out.
I really think we are in the 0-1. I think she goes from UT to OT and back due to too long a nap too short a day then is up in the night. Usually she needs at least 6 hours+ before her nap but since she's up singing in the night she seems so tired. I think her A before bed might be the culprit. I've been going small as I've read it helps with emws but from my logs I see it makes the EWs worse and I can't seem to get out of this awful loop.

[jcsmom]

Well wish I could say things were better. Got a nap refusal yesterday. Put down at 5:45 but sadly she wad up at 4:15. She dozed until 5 then I resettled her at 5:20 until she woke at 7:15. So she got 12 hours of sleep and you guessed it, she's in her bed yelling.
Her A times have dramatically increased I think. I think she needs 6.5 to settle for a nap if shes had a good night. But then if her nap is over an hour her bedtime settling takes forever. I put her down at 4-4.5 A time but she's taking forever to drop off then her night is short then she gets OT again. We're going in a loop. If she doesn't nap what time is bed with a 7:15 wu?

[jcsmom]

And day 2 no nap. Wu was 7:15 what time is bed?

[Buttonbobs]

Sorry I've not been about today. Have you tried any medication for the teething disruption?

[jcsmom]

Yes about 30-40 mins before nap/bed/at NWs. Going down now at 6 pm. Fingers crossed that she sleeps 12 hours!

[Buttonbobs]

Good luck x

[jcsmom]

Up from 1:45-4:30. Woke her at 7:30 to try to maintain some routine. I don't get it. This is the kid that used to sttn on a 45 minute nap. What is going on? Why these long nws? Yesterday her day was less than 11 hours.

[Buttonbobs]

Did you try any more meds in the middle of the night?

[jcsmom]

I do give top up meds. Things are not improving. I don't get it. How can I get her caught up on sleep if she wont sleep? Routine is out the window. No rhyme or reason. Last 2 days:
Wu 7:30
Nap 1-2:20 OT I think but woke chatty
Bed 7 asleep7:30
Wu 6
Nap 12-1:30
Bed and asleep by 6:30
NW 10:40-11:40 gave top up meds and did wi/w/o
NW 4:40-5:40 again meds and didn't need wi/w/o just restless
Wu 7:15. Going to aim for 12:30/45 nap and sebt. She looks exhausted. Sleep has never been this bad.

[jessmum46]

Hi, just dropping in

From memory has your LO always been on the lowish side for sleep needs?  I agree with Naomi you could be hitting the beginnings of the 1-0, though if canines are coming it's very hard to sort out exactly what's what.  Could molars be on the move too?  We had a hideous sleep time when they arrived, long NWs (for which meds did nothing at all) or real trouble settling at BT.  We also had a period of time around 2yo when we got NWs every night for weeks on end and I couldn't find a good reason at all....not much help but might be some comfort to know that sleep can go wonky for reasons out of our control.

If it's not teeth/development causing the disruption, I wonder whether you might need to consider pushing nap later to 1.30 and capping to 1h30 in the first instance.  I know that leaves a short A to BT but a similar routine worked well for us at this age (though we also started getting the odd nap refusal around now too).  From what you've posted I'd think it unlikely it was the A time to BT that was causing your issues......but I don't know for sure.

Did you have a peek at the 1-0 thread?  What did you think?