Can a too short last A time cause EMW? 22 months

[jcsmom]

Thanks soooo much for dropping in! I really aprreciate it. My gut and everything in me is saying she is UT at BT causing short nights and singing NWs. I think we have swung into OT territory from too much tweaking, no set routine. I also think that even with a long morning, a nap too close to bed causes these weird NWs and EMWs. Every time she has a 2 hour nap with 4-4.5 afterward, boom EMW/NW chatting. That being said, I think that moving nap out and capping it might be our only way out. I think anything earlier than 1pm causes EMWs BUT anything after 2:30 does similar. From my logs (and beleive me, I've studied them! lol) a long nap with a short A following always causes these NWs/EMWs. I read that a short A to bed can help with OT but I think she is past that, yk?

She is lower sleep needs. Right now REALLY low sleep, lol. Canines are defo making things worse. She is talking up a storm (finally after only signing really until now). Today she yelled I WANT HIGHER on the swings. I nearly fell over.

I read many of the posts in the 1-0. My DD sounds so much like Aishi's daughter. Nap robs from night more than it gives. Today she only had 35 mins . OT for sure and we haven't seen that in ages. So early to bed for her.

So you think 1:30-3 with a 7 pm bed? Thanks again for dropping in.

[jessmum46]

Yes that's what we did - pd for nap 1.15/1.30, woke by 3pm regardless of when she settled.  Sometimes it took til 2pm or later.  Then bed at 7pm.  You could try it for a week or so and see if anything changes? 

That routine worked for a little while for us and then shortly after 24 months the nap refusals became more regular.  Although I initially did short NNDs of 11h or so, I actually found the subsequent long night made another nap refusal more likely the next day which made DD more OT.  So from then on until dropping the nap completely at 29 months we did:

WU whenever - I never woke her but if she woke early day didn't start until 6.30am
Offer nap at 1.30pm - aim for 1h quiet time if nap refused, wake by 3pm if napped
BT 6.30 on NND or 7pm on nap day

If she had a couple of NNDs in a row we would go for a drive around 3pm and let her have a 15-20 min cat nap if she'd take it just to take the edge off the tiredness.  We did have short NWs a lot of nights, but they became less frequent over time and I found she'd do a long night once or twice a week to catch up.

We've now evened out at around a 11.5-12h night, STTN (touch wood!) most nights x

[Buttonbobs]

I think that 1hr 30 nap with shorter A to BT is worth a shot.

Good luck xx

Posted with Katherine

[jcsmom]

Thanks ladies. Anything is worth a shot. 10.75 night after a 35 minute nap. She's fried. I guess I didn't do BT early enough. Will push her to 1 pm today and let her catch up then ebt. Then will keep pushing nap. Will try shorter A to bed. Thanks for the plan ladies!

[jcsmom]

And total nap refusal. I knew I'd missed her window. By noon she was a write-off. Did super looooong wind down and pd at 12:50. Been doing wi/w/o. I think she's just gone quiet but I bet we get a massive OT nap. How can I get her caught up from all this silliness if she won't sleep or tack at night? Ugh. Why do we have 3-4 good weeks then a bad day or 2 just throws us for a loop for weeks?

[Buttonbobs]

Will she let you APOP sleep any way, pushing in a buggy or in the car? We can only use car naps nowadays to catch up.

[jcsmom]

She's asleep. I guess I panicked. She will apop a car nap but only for 30-45 mins. So do I wake after 90 even though her A to nap was 7 hours. Thinking of just letting sleep and BT 4-4.5 hours after.

[jessmum46]

I would wake, painful as it will be.  If she has too long a nap it may rob from her night again 

Just a thought on the one or two days throwing things off - on those days (or the following ones) do you alter naps or BT from your normal routine in an attempt to catch up?  I actually think this can sometimes be counter-productive apart from in exceptional circumstances as then it becomes not just one day out of routine, but several and LO doesn't really know what's what.  The quickest way to get back on track (for us at least) was to stick to set times as much as possible and let LO worry about the catching up. 

[jcsmom]

I often move out bedtime if she's slept in due to nws as I think she'll be ut at bed. But now that you mention it it may do more harm than good. So 1pm with 7pm bed is reasonable? I'm just afraid the 4.5 post nap will cause ut emw. Stick to it for a week with a capped nap? Fingers crossed. She seemed happy enough today upon wu. Hope it doesnt backfire!

[jessmum46]

I hope so too!  But yes we for ages had a 1/1.30 nap for about 1h30 with a 7pm BT.  I never make BT later if DD sleeps in because I figure she slept in because she needed it - and if I make BT later that takes away the extra sleep again.  Does that make sense?

[jcsmom]

So I put down with just 4 hours A and shes still awake yelling no no no Momma. 14 hour day with 1.5 nap. Awesome. Should help the OT

[jcsmom]

So asleep at 7:50 NW from 3:20-4:45 awake for the day when I woke at 7:05. So everytime her first A is longER than about 6-6.25 and her last A is short we get this NW about 7-8 hours from bedtime. Is this due to OT from too long A time or Ut from too short last A?

[jessmum46]

I don't know for sure, a long NW wouldn't be OT here - they are usually easy to settle.  My bet is still on the teeth....

[jcsmom]

OT NWs are usually easy to resettle here too. I just think there is a huge OT build up so she can't settle. Teeth don't help either.  It's breaking my heart. She's been exhausted today so put down was 12:45 and she cried so unlike her. Then she cried out at 30 mins! Gonna do ebt tonight.

ETA a broken 70 minute nap. She hasn't done one of those in ages. Now what? 6pm bed? I think she was for sure UT at bed last night. I think 4 hours after a decent nap was not enough so she mucked at bed and is even more OT now. 

[jessmum46]

I would do 6/6.30pm.  Sorry things didn't work out well today.  We'd normally advise sticking to something for a week before changing things round again, but you are there with her and if you don't feel it's working for her then you are in the best place to judge would she take an early nap, say 5h after WU, then a longer A to bedtime?