Getting my twins to go to sleep

[4isstillnighttime]

Hi

I've posted about my girls before loads but this is a new problem.....I sleep trained them with shh pat and a kind of gradual retreat with great success, and they were going down really easily for naps and bedtime - chat to each other for a bit then sleep. But 2 weeks ago, little Z stopped going to sleep at bedtime - instead she screams like she's in pain unless I lie next to the cot and hold her hand....when she will go to sleep. But it takes ages - up to an hour - and even when I think she's gone to sleep she will wake up instantly if I try and leave the room. Once she is settled I can take my hand away as long as I stay there. She is also really clingy in the day - she has always been cuddly but this is a bit more extreme.

Does this sound like separation anxiety? And if so, what do I do about it? She is inconsolable, it's not a protest cry or anything like that - it sounds like pure terror. Do I just wait it out? The only thing is that she had 2 NW last night and I had to do the same again, I was up anyway with her poorly sister. She usually settles for naps with no problems.

They are 1 and their EASY is:

Awake 5:30 (gah!)
Up at 6
Nap 9-10 (need waking)
Nap 1:30 ish - 3 (need waking)
BT 7

They are at a CM so it's hard to tweak naps etc - also they are very grumpy if they don't get those naps and I have accepted the EW for now as I don't want to change things really until they are a bit more settled at CM. Also, C gets OT really easily.

Any ideas to make our BT a bit easier? I'll ST again if I have to but don't want to if it's separation anxiety as it seems a bit cruel....

Thanks!

[kayra]

Hugs lily! I dont rememer alot about sa but ut does sound like it... Although it seems to have been going on quite a long time. Could you try a very gradual withdrawel? Or could dh take a turn so you can tend to c?
Xx

[4isstillnighttime]

Kayra! How are you? Are you still at your parents' house?

DH does some of the evenings...but tbh he is not v often home at bedtime. Last night we had C in our bed (she has an ear infection and was inconsolable) so he dealt with her whilst I settled C. I'm on my own tonight though....hungry and exhausted and have been holding z's hand for 45 mins!

I guess I will go for a v v gradual retreat again then. It's so frustrating!!

[kayra]

Ugh ear ache is horrid, is she on antibiotics now? She'll feel a lot better after a couple doses.
Sorry that you're doing bedtime by yourself maybe take a mattress in there and catch a nap for the time being. Does she buu the 'i'm just going to the toilet be back in a minute' thing? Then its 'just going to make a call and i'll be back'.. Or is she too young for that?

Im at my parents for another 3 weeks, going well overall
Xx

[4isstillnighttime]

Right, I don't want to keep cluttering up the boards with new threads so will update this one. Things with Z are getting worse. She needs her hand holding for up to an hour at bedtime and sometimes in the night. Except Monday, when she self settled and STTN. She self settles at nap time, sucks her thumb and has a lovey but she despises it. c,her twin, is b sensitive to OT so although I know I should prob think about 1 nap I am just riding with that at the moment.

Tonight she seemed to self settle, then started crying. Initially a grumble so I left her but then full-on screams and sobs. I went in and held her hand, then when she settled and lay down took my hand away and just spoke to her and shhed. She went ballistic, screamed for an hour and is now in a fitful sleep, sobbing in her sleep.

Was this right? I am so reluctant to do wiwo as she has awful SA even in the day. But did I just let her CIO? And what do I do when she bangs her head, pulls her hair, vomits?

Am in tears. I don't know why this suddenly happened!

[4isstillnighttime]

Sorry kayra, just saw your message!! I could try the "popping in and out" but I don't think she would understand.....and she ramps up into full blown hysterics so quickly!!

[ZacsMumme]

popping over from Nicola's thread as promised. I'll have a hunt/think and post later today. I'm just wondering if given the intensity of the tantrums if there is something else that may help...

Here's an old thread with some info on head banging etc (you mentioned it on Nic's thread) just scroll down to Layla's post.

11 1/2 month old banging head on cot before sleep....

What is Zs routine ATM? Has she been an IS before?

[4isstillnighttime]

Thanks ZacsMumme!

She has been an IS really for months. And still is for naps and occasionally at BT. This happened all of a sudden, out of the blue.

They get up at 5:30, nap 9-10 and 1:30-3. BT is at 7. Although I would love a later start we are all up at 6 anyway on work days and the CM is not a fan of capping naps....I had to do some pretty fast talking to get her to agree to this as they are awful when they are woken. Barring illness, they STTN maybe 2 nights out of 3, which I think is amazing!

BT routine has been the same since they were tiny. Supper at 5, then bath at 6, massage, bottle (was BF until a week ago), teeth brushed, story, bed. They have a little light show mobile I switch on. They used to chat for a bit then drop off.

The head banging is something they do in the day too - only against things that make a noise so I've always thought it was just that! Occasionally they have massive tantrums and do it then - more because they are hurling themselves around. It's not rhythmical or settling like that link said, and Z will really hurt herself in her rage.

I'm at the end of my tether. If it was just bedtime I would go with it until she is older, but the NW is stressful and I'm worried she will start to do it for naps too. Our CM is lovely and I really don't want to lose her, but I can't imagine her lying by the cot for 20 mins for every nap!!

Thanks again for all your help!

Liz

[ZacsMumme]

Looking at their routine I'd say her daily routine wrt naps may be the problem if she is spirited she is likely very close to or ready for 1 nap. They get silly and angry when UT. Then it leads to OT

Given you have twins...do you want them on the same routine? So you think both would adjust to a change in routine or not? - if your CM won't cap a nap then your really looking at CT to one nap or riding some of this out....or offering a longer day ie bt 8

[4isstillnighttime]

Silly and angry totally sums it up!
Ap
I will speak to the CM then. The thought if an 8 pm bedtime is just awful so we will have to work on these naps. They need to be on the same schedule so I'll have to do a middle ground maybe. They wake up so early I don't think I could ct to one nap as that would need an a time of 6 hours or so....Z would be fine but C would never cope! I have read all the 2-1 stuff though so I know the theory, we will just have to bit the bullet!

WRT sleep training etc....whilst I'm tweaking the naps do I just carry on holding her hand while she goes to sleep then tackle the st later? I am a bit worries about her getting OT - it's only happened once (didn't nap all day for no reason!) but it was ugly!

Thanks again.

[ZacsMumme]

Yah I kind of wonder if tweaking the routine may help with the settling yk? Often when it they are UT they are harder to settle.

So maybe focus on capping a nap - which would you prefer to cap? - then work on the props

[4isstillnighttime]

I've chatted to the CM and we will try capping the first nap. So, they went down and 9 and she woke them at 9:45. Then back to bed at 1:15 and they chatted a bit before sleep. After a couple of days we will cap the first nap at half an hour, and see how we do.

The thing is....mine have never added their missed day sleep onto their nights, so they will just be getting less sleep. Well, C will. Z took an hour to go to sleep last night so she might do better! We can't really do EBT due to my work.

I think I'll investigate the 2-1 sticky thread!

[kayra]

I've chatted to the CM and we will try capping the first nap. So, they went down and 9 and she woke them at 9:45. Then back to bed at 1:15 and they chatted a bit before sleep. After a couple of days we will cap the first nap at half an hour, and see how we do.

The thing is....mine have never added their missed day sleep onto their nights, so they will just be getting less sleep. Well, C will. Z took an hour to go to sleep last night so she might do better! We can't really do EBT due to my work.

I think I'll investigate the 2-1 sticky thread!

I agree that sorting the naps first makes sense. Do they have to be on the same routine? Is it for their/your sake or is it for the cm? I can see with my 2 that i wont be able to keep them on the same routine, their sleep habits are totally different...
The headbanging etc sounds vey distressing, many hugs!!

Posted at the same time..

[4isstillnighttime]

For my sake kayra! So I can watch tv, drink coffee, eat chocolate....

[kayra]

Haha Liz i agree that those things are vital but why would a slightly different nap routine effect that?