Author Topic: Getting my twins to go to sleep (Read 2989 times)

4isstillnighttime · « **on:** July 22, 2014, 15:46:27 pm »

Hi

I've posted about my girls before loads but this is a new problem.....I sleep trained them with shh pat and a kind of gradual retreat with great success, and they were going down really easily for naps and bedtime - chat to each other for a bit then sleep. But 2 weeks ago, little Z stopped going to sleep at bedtime - instead she screams like she's in pain unless I lie next to the cot and hold her hand....when she will go to sleep. But it takes ages - up to an hour - and even when I think she's gone to sleep she will wake up instantly if I try and leave the room. Once she is settled I can take my hand away as long as I stay there. She is also really clingy in the day - she has always been cuddly but this is a bit more extreme.

Does this sound like separation anxiety? And if so, what do I do about it? She is inconsolable, it's not a protest cry or anything like that - it sounds like pure terror. Do I just wait it out? The only thing is that she had 2 NW last night and I had to do the same again, I was up anyway with her poorly sister. She usually settles for naps with no problems.

They are 1 and their EASY is:

Awake 5:30 (gah!)
Up at 6
Nap 9-10 (need waking)
Nap 1:30 ish - 3 (need waking)
BT 7

They are at a CM so it's hard to tweak naps etc - also they are very grumpy if they don't get those naps and I have accepted the EW for now as I don't want to change things really until they are a bit more settled at CM. Also, C gets OT really easily.

Any ideas to make our BT a bit easier? I'll ST again if I have to but don't want to if it's separation anxiety as it seems a bit cruel....

Thanks!

kayra · « **Reply #1 on:** July 22, 2014, 15:57:51 pm »

Hugs lily! I dont rememer alot about sa but ut does sound like it... Although it seems to have been going on quite a long time. Could you try a very gradual withdrawel? Or could dh take a turn so you can tend to c?
Xx

4isstillnighttime · « **Reply #2 on:** July 22, 2014, 18:48:14 pm »

Kayra! How are you? Are you still at your parents' house?

DH does some of the evenings...but tbh he is not v often home at bedtime. Last night we had C in our bed (she has an ear infection and was inconsolable) so he dealt with her whilst I settled C. I'm on my own tonight though....hungry and exhausted and have been holding z's hand for 45 mins!

I guess I will go for a v v gradual retreat again then. It's so frustrating!!

kayra · « **Reply #3 on:** July 23, 2014, 17:24:32 pm »

Ugh ear ache is horrid, is she on antibiotics now? She'll feel a lot better after a couple doses.
Sorry that you're doing bedtime by yourself

maybe take a mattress in there and catch a nap for the time being. Does she buu the 'i'm just going to the toilet be back in a minute' thing? Then its 'just going to make a call and i'll be back'.. Or is she too young for that?

Im at my parents for another 3 weeks, going well overall

Xx

4isstillnighttime · « **Reply #4 on:** July 30, 2014, 19:09:47 pm »

Right, I don't want to keep cluttering up the boards with new threads so will update this one. Things with Z are getting worse. She needs her hand holding for up to an hour at bedtime and sometimes in the night. Except Monday, when she self settled and STTN. She self settles at nap time, sucks her thumb and has a lovey but she despises it. c,her twin, is b sensitive to OT so although I know I should prob think about 1 nap I am just riding with that at the moment.

Tonight she seemed to self settle, then started crying. Initially a grumble so I left her but then full-on screams and sobs. I went in and held her hand, then when she settled and lay down took my hand away and just spoke to her and shhed. She went ballistic, screamed for an hour and is now in a fitful sleep, sobbing in her sleep.

Was this right? I am so reluctant to do wiwo as she has awful SA even in the day. But did I just let her CIO? And what do I do when she bangs her head, pulls her hair, vomits?

Am in tears. I don't know why this suddenly happened!

4isstillnighttime · « **Reply #5 on:** July 30, 2014, 19:11:24 pm »

Sorry kayra, just saw your message!! I could try the "popping in and out" but I don't think she would understand.....and she ramps up into full blown hysterics so quickly!!

ZacsMumme · « **Reply #6 on:** July 30, 2014, 20:01:19 pm »

popping over from Nicola's thread as promised. I'll have a hunt/think and post later today. I'm just wondering if given the intensity of the tantrums if there is something else that may help...

Here's an old thread with some info on head banging etc (you mentioned it on Nic's thread) just scroll down to Layla's post.

11 1/2 month old banging head on cot before sleep....

What is Zs routine ATM? Has she been an IS before?

4isstillnighttime · « **Reply #7 on:** July 30, 2014, 20:14:40 pm »

Thanks ZacsMumme!

She has been an IS really for months. And still is for naps and occasionally at BT. This happened all of a sudden, out of the blue.

They get up at 5:30, nap 9-10 and 1:30-3. BT is at 7. Although I would love a later start we are all up at 6 anyway on work days and the CM is not a fan of capping naps....I had to do some pretty fast talking to get her to agree to this as they are awful when they are woken. Barring illness, they STTN maybe 2 nights out of 3, which I think is amazing!

BT routine has been the same since they were tiny. Supper at 5, then bath at 6, massage, bottle (was BF until a week ago), teeth brushed, story, bed. They have a little light show mobile I switch on. They used to chat for a bit then drop off.

The head banging is something they do in the day too - only against things that make a noise so I've always thought it was just that! Occasionally they have massive tantrums and do it then - more because they are hurling themselves around. It's not rhythmical or settling like that link said, and Z will really hurt herself in her rage.

I'm at the end of my tether. If it was just bedtime I would go with it until she is older, but the NW is stressful and I'm worried she will start to do it for naps too. Our CM is lovely and I really don't want to lose her, but I can't imagine her lying by the cot for 20 mins for every nap!!

Thanks again for all your help!

Liz

ZacsMumme · « **Reply #8 on:** July 30, 2014, 20:21:48 pm »

Looking at their routine I'd say her daily routine wrt naps may be the problem $:-\$ if she is spirited she is likely very close to or ready for 1 nap. They get silly and angry when UT. Then it leads to OT

Given you have twins...do you want them on the same routine? So you think both would adjust to a change in routine or not? - if your CM won't cap a nap then your really looking at CT to one nap or riding some of this out....or offering a longer day ie bt 8

4isstillnighttime · « **Reply #9 on:** July 31, 2014, 05:03:20 am »

Silly and angry totally sums it up!
Ap
I will speak to the CM then. The thought if an 8 pm bedtime is just awful so we will have to work on these naps. They need to be on the same schedule so I'll have to do a middle ground maybe. They wake up so early I don't think I could ct to one nap as that would need an a time of 6 hours or so....Z would be fine but C would never cope! I have read all the 2-1 stuff though so I know the theory, we will just have to bit the bullet!

WRT sleep training etc....whilst I'm tweaking the naps do I just carry on holding her hand while she goes to sleep then tackle the st later? I am a bit worries about her getting OT - it's only happened once (didn't nap all day for no reason!) but it was ugly!

Thanks again.

ZacsMumme · « **Reply #10 on:** July 31, 2014, 08:29:46 am »

Yah I kind of wonder if tweaking the routine may help with the settling yk? Often when it they are UT they are harder to settle.

So maybe focus on capping a nap - which would you prefer to cap? - then work on the props

4isstillnighttime · « **Reply #11 on:** July 31, 2014, 13:21:33 pm »

I've chatted to the CM and we will try capping the first nap. So, they went down and 9 and she woke them at 9:45. Then back to bed at 1:15 and they chatted a bit before sleep. After a couple of days we will cap the first nap at half an hour, and see how we do.

The thing is....mine have never added their missed day sleep onto their nights, so they will just be getting less sleep. Well, C will. Z took an hour to go to sleep last night so she might do better! We can't really do EBT due to my work.

I think I'll investigate the 2-1 sticky thread!

kayra · « **Reply #12 on:** July 31, 2014, 14:20:25 pm »

Quote from: LilyRose22 on July 31, 2014, 13:21:33 pm

I've chatted to the CM and we will try capping the first nap. So, they went down and 9 and she woke them at 9:45. Then back to bed at 1:15 and they chatted a bit before sleep. After a couple of days we will cap the first nap at half an hour, and see how we do.

The thing is....mine have never added their missed day sleep onto their nights, so they will just be getting less sleep. Well, C will. Z took an hour to go to sleep last night so she might do better! We can't really do EBT due to my work.

I think I'll investigate the 2-1 sticky thread!

I agree that sorting the naps first makes sense. Do they have to be on the same routine? Is it for their/your sake or is it for the cm? I can see with my 2 that i wont be able to keep them on the same routine, their sleep habits are totally different...
The headbanging etc sounds vey distressing, many hugs!!

Posted at the same time..

4isstillnighttime · « **Reply #13 on:** July 31, 2014, 16:54:12 pm »

For my sake kayra! So I can watch tv, drink coffee, eat chocolate....

kayra · « **Reply #14 on:** July 31, 2014, 18:27:53 pm »

Haha Liz

i agree that those things are vital

but why would a slightly different nap routine effect that?

ZacsMumme · « **Reply #15 on:** July 31, 2014, 19:35:23 pm »

It may even be that a different nap routine ie one has the am nap capped a bit more than the other is only for a short period of time. Once they are both on one nap things will likely settle and you will be able to pd at the same time etc.

Hugs

4isstillnighttime · « **Reply #16 on:** August 03, 2014, 19:38:45 pm »

Just a quick update....we have been capping the am nap at 45 mins, and in fact they are now waking after 30-45 on their own. And for the second nap we go down a bit earlier - so the day now looks like:

Up at 5:30 (or before.....aaarrrggghhh!!!! 😄)
Nap 9-9:30 or 9:45
Nap 1-3. Takes a while to get to sleep and I will let C sleep longer if she needs it....but Z is up at 3!!
Bed at 7.

And for 3 nights out of 4 they have both self settled and slept through! And Saturday night was an odd one as we had been out all day, they had had funny car naps and a late BT so I just held z's hand to sleep.

So hopefully, with some nap tweaking, we should get there! Is it ok to keep a 30 min am nap for a bit? Then when we start having further shenanigans at BT think about dropping it? I do love having them both nap for a bit in the morning so I can drink loads of coffee and prepare for the day!!

Many, many thanks from a very relieved mummy!

kayra · « **Reply #17 on:** August 04, 2014, 06:05:44 am »

Liz thats great!

I think defintiely keep the am catnap until it starts messing up things.

ZacsMumme · « **Reply #18 on:** August 04, 2014, 10:40:29 am »

That looks good Hun.
You could cap the pm nap at 1.5 hrs and see if the night lengthens to 11hrs...but if your enjoying STTN maybe just get into bed early yourself and enjoy it while it lasts

4isstillnighttime · « **Reply #19 on:** August 04, 2014, 19:34:49 pm »

They are coping really well on it in the day

. And I didn't wake up til 6 this morning (no idea how long they had been awake though!). And because I have embraced your advice I had been in bed since 9:30pm, and although I had to do a resettle at 3 I am feeling pretty good today! And I think I could have done the resettle better but I just fell asleep next to the cot and woke up at 5, so probably not perfect!

There was a bit of grumpiness at bedtime but I did a sort of fake WIWO pretending I was tidying up and they settled down. But Z woke up after an hour screaming - I thought something had happened and ran up there....and ended up holding her hand again. She was inconsolable but she wasn't sitting up and I'm not sure she was even really awake?! She is teething though so I'll give her calpol tomorrow night maybe.

Hope things stay this good! And thank you all again! If I get really confident I'll cap the pm nap but I am v happy where we are at the moment!!

ZacsMumme · « **Reply #20 on:** August 05, 2014, 02:15:06 am »

So glad to hear things are much better.

That screaming NW sounds like teeth $:-\$

4isstillnighttime · « **Reply #21 on:** August 11, 2014, 19:46:40 pm »

Sara.....Kayra......I need help again.....

We have had an awful weekend, they have both got colds, and a vomiting bug on top, and C is cutting a big back tooth (molar? Premolars?). But although I am still struggling to get Z to sleep, she will then sleep through. C, though, is really struggling.

Since Wednesday she is waking earlier and earlier, more and more upset, and the naps are getting shorter and shorter. And since Saturday she is waking every hour or so at night. Today she was awake at 4:45, napped 9-9:45 at the childminder, then 2-3 (was put down at 1 but took an hour to settle!) then woke up screaming (she woke up herself both times and wouldn't be resettled). I picked them up at 18:10 and got them bathed and in bed for 18:40 (which was quite an achievement!!) and she settled in about 10 minutes. But I can hear her crying and whimpering in her sleep, which fills me with dread....

Obviously we are in dire straits, and she is struggling with so many things, but how do I help her through it? She won't sleep late in the morning and with work they can't get to bed any earlier. Should I move the first nap earlier just while they recover? She fell asleep in the car yesterday at 7am on a 10 minute drive, she is exhausted! If I was at home I'd plan a day or pushchair walks and driving to just make her sleep but I can't get the CM to do that!

DH is away so I'm on my own for a few days, and I absolutely need better nights as I only got about 3 hours last night and was a zombie today! Please help....

ZacsMumme · « **Reply #22 on:** August 11, 2014, 21:55:47 pm »

So sorry Hun

we are house of sickness here too and it's been an absolute mess

When my boys got to the point where they were waking that much I got them down to the drs asap. Even if it is a virus that frequent NW means the pain or congestion etc is not begin managed so it's worth checking for bacterial infections, or anything else that can help yk?

Try not to think about easy. ... When they're sick like this it all goes out the window and you just have to ride it out best you can with EBT, reading your lo best you can and apop.

I can't imagine how difficult it must be with two sick twins on your own. So many hugs xx

4isstillnighttime · « **Reply #23 on:** August 12, 2014, 07:14:14 am »

We will go to the doctors, it's a good idea. And I'll just go with the flow for a bit. I've told the cm to just do whatever she thinks with naps today, I'm too tired to think of a plan! It was our fourth awful night in a row, not sure how much longer I can cope!!!

Hope your 2 are better soon Sara, and thanks for the thoughts!

ZacsMumme · « **Reply #24 on:** August 12, 2014, 07:43:41 am »

I'm sure you are, but if not I would give pain meds before bt and if they wake distressed and they're due. Are they congested?

Lots of hugs Hun

4isstillnighttime · « **Reply #25 on:** August 12, 2014, 20:13:47 pm »

They are very congested, streaming noses and husky voices. And I try so hard to give the meds but it's such a battle!! The other thing I forgot is to try a cup of water if they wake up loads, that's worked for us in the past. They napped better today apparently so all my fingers are crossed for an improvement!!

Xxx

kayra · « **Reply #26 on:** August 13, 2014, 18:10:35 pm »

Hugs liz, extra awful that youre having to deal with it solo!
Can you give calpol before bed? Do they let you clean their noses out?
I agree, forget about easy a while and follow their cues for sleep. Waters a good idea, can you decrease dairy if they are congested?

4isstillnighttime · « **Reply #27 on:** August 13, 2014, 21:22:38 pm »

Wow, look at your profile photo kayra, they are huge!!!

I
I didn't know about decreasing dairy, will try it. And I forced some calpol down c before bed. She fell off the big bed and landed on her head today which has just made everything worse as I'm really paranoid and have to keep checking her

and I feel guilty for letting it happen

I just keep thinking we must be near the end of this little run of sickness now. It's been 10 days....but I think I will have to st again maybe as I have been APing like mad to get through it!
I

kayra · « **Reply #28 on:** August 14, 2014, 07:41:46 am »

10 days is long no fair

yes they say dairy increases the mucous..
Can you put pillows by the bed for if she falls? They just turned 1 right? Sorry inkeep forgetting, you need tickers

4isstillnighttime · « **Reply #29 on:** August 14, 2014, 22:15:25 pm »

Well....they STTN last night (6:30-5:00) with just one little grumble....but rotten naps today so we will see.

Hoping we are getting there! And i would love tickers! Perhaps I will
Investigate!

ZacsMumme · « **Reply #30 on:** August 14, 2014, 22:51:33 pm »

Hugs. Unfortunately most of us have at least one terrible story to tell

(Z fell out of his cot onto his head once.

and T fell flat into his face from the swing outside and put his teeth through his lip

) our nurse said to me 'they tend to bounce at this age'

and as awful as it is with these one off events it does seem to be somewhat true and usually they are ok

Lovely they sttn, hope you did too!
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Author Topic: Getting my twins to go to sleep (Read 2989 times)