4.5 month wakes up multiple times between 9pm bedtime and 11pm dream feed

[rebemuri]

Today again we only had one single wake-up in the whole 8-11pm window, so that is FANTASTIC news. I really want to thank you for giving me my evenings back! Even though I find myself making DS nap 5 times a day, it is well worth the effort. Thanks so much!
On that one wake-up, he won’t cry. He’ll just start making cute little noises (not-so-cute when you’re hoping he will sleep instead ), so I’ve thought it is probably best to give him the chance to go back to sleep on his own. However, I’ve left him alone a few times for 15-20 minutes, with no success. By then, I’m worried that his OT will just get worse, so I go in the room, hold him and walk around for a few minutes to make him a bit drowsy (otherwise he’ll either keep making noises, or start crying), and will then put him back on his crib to make sure he doses off on the crib.
Can I pick your brain one more time and ask for your advice on this?
-   When he wakes up, would you leave him alone for a longer time, and see if he will fall back asleep on his own? Or is it too risky that he will get even more OT so I should I go in and help him? A
-   Also, would you say it is OK to hold him til he is drowsy? I have found no other way to make him sleepy, other than holding him and walking around a few minutes.
Thanks again for all your advice! This forum is truly a blessing.

[jessmum46]

So glad the improvements have continued

If he wakes at night I would leave him to it unless he is crying an 'I need you' cry.  Probably better that he learns to settle alone, rather than always looking for you to come and help him out.  On that note.....I would actually start putting him down fully awake, not drowsy.  It's very easy for a prop to develop if you assist too much as LO doesn't know how to start the transition from wakefulness into sleep.  I know at least one mum here who really struggled with that and it was only when she started putting LO down fully awake (calm is ok but eyes shouldn't be shutting) that they made consistent progress.  It's a bit scary to do if you haven't before, but your LO is still at a really good age to learn quickly

[rebemuri]

I kind of feared you would say that, Katherine! 
It sure is scary, but I think once again you are right on. I'll begin trying this tomorrow.
Thanks so much!!

[jessmum46]

Good luck!

[Martika]

Hi!

Just wanted to say that I'm thinking of you and hope your LO settles into a nice routine very soon with lots of Y time for yourself and good night sleep! Good luck!

[rebemuri]

You're so sweet, Martika, thanks for the note!!
I haven't logged back to this website in a month since we traveled all the month of August to Costa Rica (my home country) for DS's baptism. It was amazing, and really touching to see the family loving every minute with DS and my older daughter. BUT... I can't tell you how much this trip took us back to ground zero. DS is now sleeping 5-30 minute naps at best, waking through the night, sometimes because of hunger, other times just because, and often will stay awake for 2 hours or so. I am so exhausted, sleeping only a couple of hours per day, and can't even think about how to begin re-establishing a good routine.
Actually, DS just woke up from his nap (15 minutes!!) so I'll have to catch up with you later.

[jessmum46]

Hugs, post us am update of what's going on when you get a chance and hopefully we can help with a plan x

[rebemuri]

Hi, everyone! It has taken us almost 2 weeks to get to SOME normality since we returned from our trip! Note to self: Next time I travel with DS, he will be driving me to the airport! 
Yesterday we followed Katherine's advice to place DS in the crib without any previous rocking or holding. Tons of PU/PD, of course... and I can already see a huge improvement. So thanks for that, Katherine. I was really scared to try it, and it was not easy (lots of crying and yelling at 4am), but it's paying off already.
My question is: We've been doing shush/pat to help DS in the process. He is still swaddled (that's next in my to-do list) so I pat him gently between chest and shoulder. He will be 6 months old next week. Is it OK to do shush/pat at this stage? Or is he too old for that? I think that really helps reduce the number of PU's that we do, so I am hoping you will say "Suuuure, it is perfectly OK and that is an aid that will be a piece of cake to eliminate later on" 
Thanks as always. You all are life-changers here.
Rebeca

[jessmum46]

Brilliant work with PUPD well done!

If shh pat still works to calm LO that's totally fine. The main reason not to use it in older LOs is that some can find it quite distracting as they get older. But if its working go with it.  Just keep 'do the minimum' in mind and step back to allow LO space to self-settle once calm x

[rebemuri]

He has gotten used quickly to the crib, so settles very quickly... but has taken him anywhere from 25 min (best scenario) to almost 3 hours to fall asleep!! That of course leads to OT'ness, weird inconsistent schedules, early nap and night wakings, etc. Any suggestions? Again, he tends to be calm in the crib with shush pat, but it is taking him a long time to fall asleep.
Thanks!!

[jessmum46]

Can you post your routine? He may need some A time tweaks

[rebemuri]

Forgot to mention... it takes him that long to fall asleep but we KNOW he is tired. For example, last night he slept 7-8 hours at most, and today he woke up from his nap after 30 minutes (OT for sure). We tried to get him to sleep again… it took us 3 hours or so.
His "routine" is quite inconsistent these days. Yesterday:
E: 7:30am (had managed to fall asleep almost 10PM the previous night... very late)
S: 9:30am (slept for 2 hours)
E: 11:30am
S:  1:30PM (slept for 1.5 hours)
E: 3: 30pm
S: 5:00pm (30 min catnap)
S: Put on the crib at 6pm (expecting 30 min to fall asleep), fell asleep only at 9PM!! After that, had frequent wakings all night.

Today:
E: 5am (woke up hungry since previous day he did not eat well)
S: 7am - 7:30am
E: 8:30am
We placed him in the crib around 8:45, since we realized for sure he would be OT from the terrible night, but he did not fall asleep.
E: 11:30am (We actually fed him again even BEFORE he ever was able to nap at all, gave him a bath, and placed him right back to his crib. Poor thing, seems to spend all his day there.)
S: 12:45 - 1:45 pm (we KNOW he was OT, but would NOT fall asleep until this time)
E: 3PM
And now, I've been in the room with him for half an hour... still won't sleep. That's where we are so far. Pretty hectic day

THANKS FOR YOUR HELP!!

[rebemuri]

As I was reading my own post where I said that all DS does in his day is try to sleep, I realized... perhaps that could be part of the issue? Perhaps DS is not getting enough physical activity? Even though his awake times are veeeeery long, he is not doing a lot from a physical standpoint as we try to get him to sleep for a big part of the day. Even worse since he is swaddled (next on my to-do list!). Could this be the issue? Any other ideas will be very much appreciated!!

[jessmum46]

No I don't think him spending a lot of the day in his bed/inactivity is likely to be the main issue, I think most likely you've got some UT/OT issues going on. He's nearly six months now right? This is prime 3-2 territory and its also an extremely common time for mums (myself included with DD when she was younger) to totally miss the cues that LOs need more A time. I know it seems like LO is exhausted but that's because you're shooting for a routine that's too young, so you either get UT short naps or nap refusals, both of which lead to OT overall.

An average A time for your LOs age is 2h30-3h (Average A times- BOOKMARK ME! ).  You are occasionally getting good naps with 2h but that's probably only because he's really exhausted. The day you put him down 1h15 after waking from a 30 min nap he was almost certainly UT which is why he refused it. Same with putting him down at BT only 30 mins after the CN. Yes he might have been tired overall but not tired enough at that minute to go to sleep. The way to think of it is think how you feel with a young LO, probably pretty tired overall right? But if you got up in the morning and then someone told you to go to sleep an hour later, you'd probably struggle to drop off. Does that make sense?

My suggestion would be start with your first A time of the day. Bump it to 2h15 minimum then after a few days up to 2h30. Over the next couple of weeks to a month you want to be working up to 3h just so you know where you're heading. After a short nap I'd shorten the A time but probably not to less than 2h or so (unless a super short nap). 

My other suggestion to save your sanity a bit would be to limit the time you try for a nap or try to resettle. You can't be trying to get him to sleep all day. That's not healthy for you and you won't enjoy your LO. I would suggest no more than 45 mins trying for a nap before you get up for some A time, and no more than 15 mins or so trying to resettle.

What do you think?

[rebemuri]

What do I think? I think I want to hug you! LOL! You are amazing, Katherine. I absolutely did not think this could be the issue, and I absolutely LOVE the advice of limiting the insanity to 45 min of trying to get LO to sleep DH will love it even more since poor thing has a cranky wife to deal with on top of everything!
Thanks a million, Katherine!!
Rebeca