4.5 month wakes up multiple times between 9pm bedtime and 11pm dream feed

[rebemuri]

Today was tons better already, Katherine! Sticking to your advice here
Falling asleep at night however was a challenge. Do you have any suggestions as to why that could have been? Here's today's EASY:
E: 4am (night waking)
S: 5-6am
E: 7:45am
S: 8:50-9:50 (took him 30-40 minutes to fall asleep)
E: 11:20am
S: 12:15-2pm (took him 30-40 minutes to fall asleep)
E: 3:10
S: 4:30 - 4:55 (took him 30-40 minutes to fall asleep)
E: 6:20
S:  8:10pm (took him an hour and 15 min to fall asleep!! I did not feel like I could stop and try again later, since it was already quite late at night. 90% of the time, DS was fussing, but not full blown crying, so initially I left him there. But after 20, 30, 40, 60 minutes, I did pick him up as it did not seem like he was about to settle any time soon. The last 10-15 min he was finally not fussing, but it still took him a while to finally sleep. He would open his eyes every so often... unable to sleep.)

To make matters worse, DH is super supportive and wants to help, but it seems that I am the only one craving that help as DS wants none of it .  DH can calm DS by holding and rocking him, but the second he places him back on the crib, DS will cry like there’s no tomorrow… every time. So I’m kind of left alone to do it all.

Ideas, please?

Question from your previous post: When we talk about 2:30 min A Time, should I plan to get LO in the crib after 2 hours, anticipating a 30 min window for him to fall asleep?
Another question: When you say A time should not be less than 2 hours unless he had a super short nap, what would be a super short nap?

Thanks as always!!

[jessmum46]

I'm so glad you had a better day! Looking at it he seems to definitely need/handle the longer A times so fingers crossed you're on the right track. He may need to bump up to 2h45-3h reasonably quickly over the next week or two.

He could well have been UT at bedtime after good naps in the day. You wouldn't really want the day to go longer than 13h though so I do think you're probably well on the way to two naps.  If you get your second nap ending closer to 3pm I would skip a 3rd nap and do EBT of 6pm/3h A time. If the second nap finishes earlier than 3pm you'll need a CN but I would make it as short as possible, possibly even just 15-20 mins to see you through to normal BT/max 13h day.

Super short nap I would probably say is 30-40 mins or under ie less than one sleep cycle. Some LOs can do a near full A time after a 45 minute nap.

With my LOs if they took 30 mins to fall asleep I would know almost certainly they were UT. If you've been putting down at 2h, I would try increasing it to pd at 2h15, then after a few days 2h30 etc. When I time things well here my LOs have always settled within about 5 mins.

Have you read this? All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months

[rebemuri]

Thanks! Today I will try putting DS in his crib 2h15 min after he woke up, and see if that leads to quicker sleep.

I was hoping that with better days we might almost automatically have better nights too (wishful thinking, probably). So I actually haven't really mentioned the biggest problem that we have, which is a consistent 4am waking that is killing DH and me. Last night again was horrible so perhaps you can offer some advice? DS wakes up every day close to 4am, at times hungry... other times doesn't seem like it. Past few days I've been so tired that after a while I just bring DS into bed with us. Terrible practice, but tell that to the 4am me... doesn't want to know if that will make it worse in the future... just wants to get some sleep! He'll be in and out of sleep until around 7am, when DH takes DS to his crib and he will usually take a short nap. Here is how it went last night:

Yesterday I tried Wake to Sleep at 3:15. It did not work. When I got in his room he was already moving a bit (perhaps the sound of the door opening, perhaps something else). I still went in and rubbed his cheek for a second. He moved a little more. I stepped out and thought I had nailed it. But at 3:50am he woke up. I came in, did just one PU/PD and he slept again in his crib. Then at 4:30am, he woke up again. DH and I tried to settle him and it all went downhill from there. DS ended up in bed with us. Had a partial feed at 5:45am (he may not have been hungry after all), DH rocked him to sleep at 7:30 and he slept until 8am.

Please HELP! DH is ready to hire someone that can help at night, and I really want to to avoid that if I can... but I understand that he needs some sleep, poor thing. Can you please work your magic one more time, Katherine? 
Thanks!!

[jessmum46]

What is his mood like on waking at 4am? Is he really upset/crying etc for you? Or is he just messing around?

[rebemuri]

He's usually just messing around, like he's done sleeping. Though I have to say, last night I tried wake-to-sleep one more time, and it DID work, so I am hopeful again.
PU/PD has worked incredibly well. I am very glad we followed your advice and followed through there. He is still resisting the crib every time, though... crying, wining, etc. Mostly first nap of the day (usually seems OT regardless of what time I place him there) and BT. That will stop eventually, right? In your experience, how long does it usually take for crying and PU/PD to stop or drastically reduce?
Thanks a lot for all your support, Katherine.

[jessmum46]

That crying/whining could be UT, not OT. You're still putting him down fairly early for a six month old I'd try pushing another 10-15 mins before you put him down and see if that helps.  The 4am WU I think could also be UT so pushing his A times could well help with that too.  I suspect things may settle a bit once you are on a two nap routine consistently - let's hope so!

[rebemuri]

Thanks so much. We've made a lot of progress following your advice. DS (now 6 months old) is resisting the crib a lot less now, and falling back to sleep on his own quite consistently. We are in a much better place now thanks to you, Katherine. Can't thank you enough.
The dreaded 4-4:30 wake-up is still a big reality for us. I can't seem to be able to get rid of it! DS wakes up at this time but lays veeery quietly in his crib, so I don't even realize that he''s been awake since then until around 5:15-5:30 when he begins to fuzz. It is only then that I check a camera that I have in his room that I realize he's been awake for a LOOONG time. When I go in his room at 5:30 he is so happy to see me, but then when he realizes I am not playing, he begins to cry. I am unsure if he is hungry or not, but after a while of crying that's the only thing that I find that settles him. He will usually take a full feed at that time. Here's a typical EASY routine for us:
E: 5:45am (after being awake since 4 or 4:30 am)
S: 7am-7:45
E: 9:45am
S: 10am-11:15
E: 1:40pm
S: 2pm-3pm
E: 5:40pm
S: Depending on what time he woke up, I may squeeze in a final 20 minute catnap in the stroller at around 4pm. (if he woke up before 3 or 3:30pm)
S: 7 - 7:20pm (I try to get him to bed at 6:20 since he's been had such a long day, but sometimes it takes him that long to fall asleep)
E (dreamfeed): 10 - 10:30pm

He is certainly taking many more naps a day than he should. I would love to be in a 2 nap routine by now, but with those very early wake-up's and naps that don't last as long, I have no idea how to get there.
Looking forward to your advice to get rid once and for all of this dreaded early wake-up!
Rebeca
PS. We tried wake-to-sleep and it hasn't been as successful as it was with DD. At times it simply doesn't work (wake-to-sleep at 3:30, wakes up at 4:10 anyway), and other times it does seem to improve the situation a bit, but not as much as we would hope (he began to wake up a bit later for a while... 5'ish).

[rebemuri]

(continuation from previous post)
Oooh, the dreaded 4am wake-up continues. Here’s yesterday’s EASY:
We attempted wake-to-sleep at 3:20am. DS woke up at 4am and went back to sleep only until 5:15 am. I did not realize this until 6:20am when he woke up again.
E   6:30
S   8:55 - 9:20
E   10:20
S   11:10 -2:05 (awake 15 min in between, went back to sleep on his own)
E   2:20
S   4-4:20
E   6:20
S   7:25

Last night, again, we attempted wake-to-sleep at 3:20am. It may have disturbed his sleep since DS began to move at around 3:30am… seemed to have been awake til 4am when he went back to sleep on his own. Then woke up again at 5:15am but he wasn't crying so I left him in his crib and fed him an hour later. And here’s today’s routine so far:
E   6:20am
S   8:20 – 8:50

The 30 min catnap early in the morning is also a trend now. He seems to sleep more in the late morning/early afternoon, but not the first nap of the day.
Any suggestions?
Thanks!!

[jessmum46]

A night feed is still completely normal at this age.  What happens if you just feed in the dark and put him straight back down?  I think that early 7-7.45 nap is throwing everything off.  If he doesn't resettle at the early waking I would take the start of your day as the time you first hear him (quiet time in the crib = sleep time in my book, if I don't know LO is awake they aren't!) and make sure he does a full A time before he goes back to sleep.  He is waking so early because he is getting his first nap so early, so you will need to push that out to get to a good routine. 

I would also push your A times to 3h at least.  You're getting typical UT length naps of 1h-1h15 which is why you are feeling like you need a 4th nap some days.  I would totally avoid 4 naps, that even causes trouble for us here at not quite four months old.  You'd be better (say your day starts at 5.45am) to do 3h A times, hope for two good naps and then early BT of 5.30/6pm.  If you get short naps then throw in a third one and push BT out to 6.45pm/13h day.  What do you think?

[rebemuri]

Makes a lot of sense.
I heard him this morning at 5:15. He was not crying so I left him in his crib and did not feed him until 6:20 when he started to complain a bit more. He did do a 30 min catnap at 8:20am this morning, so I guess I am in trouble now
What would you have done differently this morning? Should I have waited at least until 9 or 9:30 to put him to bed for his first nap?

[jessmum46]

8.20 was ok, that's a decent A time after WU. I would then shoot for about 2.5h A time after he woke from that nap and hope for a long one, or at least one you can resettle.  How is it going?

[rebemuri]

OMG, I asked someone here to watch him while I took a bath, specifically said "don't let him sleep yet"... next thing I know, DS was sound asleep at 11am. I'm in for a bumpy ride tonight! He slept for 2 hours (until 1pm), in 30 min intervals. He kept waking up, then falling back asleep. I am planning to take him for a stroller ride at around 3 to see if he takes a catnap. Ideally, he should be awake by 4pm so that I can get him to bed at 6:30, asleep by 7pm.
I guess we did not improve much on the A times today

[rebemuri]

Woooh! Improvement today! :d DS woke up at 6:10am, and I am one happy mom! As always, thanks a lot, Katherine.
Today I put him in the crib at 8:45 to stretch his A time as you suggested... it was REALLY tough though... DS was extremely tired. He cried a lot, had to do quite a bit of PU/PD again. Do you think he will get used to this "late" nap or should I expect the first nap to be this tough?
It did seem the right thing to do to give him longer A times as he slept for 1.5 hour! Fantastic first nap.

[jessmum46]

Yay much nicer WU . (5.45am here - ugh).

Great first nap too.  A lot of babies do struggle and cry when you stretch their A time, just keep things as low key as you can, maybe even have him in a sling or something so he's nice and calm.  And stick with it for a few days.  Hopefully he'll get used to it soon x

[rebemuri]

6:30am wake-up today, so you were right on, Katherine! Thanks a million.
How does a 3-hour A time work with a 4-hour EASY routine? DS woke up at 6:30, so should be asleep around 9:30, and next feed is at 10:30. Am I missing something, or might he wake up early from his nap due to hunger? Not sure how to make this work.