So we really need some help. STing a v spirited 13mo-it's not going to be pretty

[cuckoochick]

We really need some help. So we've been just in survival mode since having G. Her sleep has been rubbish but more recently improved but she's not an independent sleeper and won't go to bed for anyone but me and now AP is not really working. Plus she either STTN or we get a 2hr NW. No apparent rhyme or reason.

When I was in hospital,having my appendix removed, she was either up unto, 10:30pm for ILs or DH had to drive 40miles to get her to sleep.

In the daytime, she goes to sleep easily for her naps. MIL sings to her and DH usually either cuddles or rocks her. Takes a few mins. BT she nurses to sleep. She has always been easy to get into bed once she's fed to sleep but more recently, she wakes more easily and is then a nightmare, like tonight. She was asleep but then woke as I got to her door. An hour since and I've rocked her, cuddled her, lay next to her cot, patted and she still won't sleep. She's playing with me in there (same as for NWs) but if I leave the room, she loses the plot. If I sit out of her eyeline she screams. She goes from playing to full on screaming with big fat tears rolling down her face very easily. If I send DH in, she screams as though he's hurting her. The 2hr NWs are driving me insane- we probably get the anything from 2-3 times per week, regardless of her routine. DH is in there now- she's either screaming or playing- yep singing in there now and it's been 1.5hrs trying for BT now. AP isn't working as well for him at BT if I have enough of it- he usually lies on the sofa bed in there but it takes sooooo long for her to go off and if he moves and she hears back to screaming. I am getting pretty over it and we need to do something about it.

I've always put off because of the reflux, illness etc or because I'm at work but with me being off, now is the time.

So how on earth do you do this with a spirited monkey? She's walking around the cot or throwing herself around and I worry she's going to get hurt. Do I need to lose the nursing before bed entirely? I've got my first night out in over 19mos coming up in 3 weeks and so we need her to be able to go to bed for DH as I don't fancy coming home and having to get her to bed at 11pm or whatever!

Her routine is variable especially as it's school holidays so we are being a bit flexible with WU especially after NWs we try to sleep as long as we can. She went to 1 nap early at 8mos and has always been v high A times/LSN.

Wake up 7:30am usually
Nap 12:30/1-2/2:30 we usually try to limit this to 1.5hrs now as with 2 hr nap,she won't sleep any longer than 10.5hrs at night and we were getting EW so we thought it might help but we sometimes let her have 2hrs
BT: 7:30-8 but tonight it is 9pm and she is still larking about/screaming.

NW is usually 1:30/2 for around 2hrs. Nothing works to get her back to sleep.

Please help. Xxx

[4isstillnighttime]

I can't help as I am having almost exactly the same thing with my 12 month old. Except she used to go to sleep just fine and now doesn't. I wondered if it was separation anxiety and am doing a very very gradual withdrawal, which is how I STed in the first place...but it's not going brilliantly.

I am waiting with bated breath for the words of wisdom. In the meantime I lie next to her cot, hold her hand, and play suduko on my phone under the cot so she can't see it!

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Nicola have you tried an even shorter nap? Sounds weird I know but on days we cannot wear E right out (and I mean the park 3-4 times plus 2 hrs swimming as wearing her out!) she will only do a good night on a 45 min to maybe 1 hr nap. I really don't like it as I have no time at all to do stuff but we are down to one brief nw (& one night of sttn!) so I have to pick my battles!

E screams too if she is in her crib and I am not touching her - but in my arms she flails too. I do the phone under the crib too - scrabble .  I think though for it to work the feeding association needs to be broken yk? E is on bottles and a few weeks ago I swapped her bottle to before the bath.

[jessmum46]

I think I'd agree the feeding right before sleep needs to go.  You don't have to stop nursing completely but maybe do as Heidi suggested and feed her before bathtime.  The shorter nap is also worth a try if she's very LSN.

I wonder from what you've written whether (given your/DHs presence isn't helping anyway) she actually needs to be left on her own to settle to sleep?  Possibly for a spirited LO your presence in itself is enough to keep her from settling?  I'm not suggesting for a moment that you let her CIO or anything like that, but that even though she isn't and hasn't been an IS, you may need to use something more like WIWO? 

Is her room pitch black?  Does she have a lovey?

[ZacsMumme]

Hey sweetie. Honestly, I think you need to do WI/WO or it's not going to work. Her age, and spirited traits really don't bode well for much success with GW UNLESS YOU WANT TO BE DOING IT FOR MONTHS (sorry I didn't mean to use caps)

I think it sounds like most of this is prop related do you have a plan or thoughts on what you can and can't do with regards to ST....if you can handle the crying (or if DH can) then I would invest in some ear plugs and either sit in the room out of sight reassuring when you need to, or do Wi\wo.

It will probably take hours....but progress will be fast....I promise

[cuckoochick]

Thanks ladies, we're off out but I'll be back. Thanks so much

[Sarah - Enfys' Mum]

Medi is quite spirited too - and would never fall asleep if I was there watching her as she'd just want to play.  If she's not settling I do wi/wo now too.

[4isstillnighttime]

Sorry to keep hijacking, tell me to get lost and start my own thread if I'm annoying you...but Z will bang her head on the bars, pull her own hair, vomit......that is why I did GW as I don't want her to hurt herself. But you are right Zacs Mum - we are not doing brilliantly. How do you keep them safe during sleep training if you do wiwo?

[twogirlsmommy]

Hugs!  We had to do WIWO with dd2 as she is a spirited little miss and I had gotten into the habit for NW to just bring her into bed with us and then transfer her back when she was asleep. (it worked brilliantly until she was about 1yr) She then started to play around in our bed and so 1 night when dh was at his mom's recovering from knee surgery dd2 and I did wiwo.  It took me 2 hrs but she went back to sleep and the next night it only took an hr and now at 16 months she STN (minus teething or sickness)  At bedtime we put down she stands up and cries I usually go back in 1 time and then she puts herself to sleep.  Same with nap.  It is hard and she of course woke up dd1 in this process (small house) but now 4 months later SOOOOOOO worth it as we all sleep and actually dd2 sleeps later then dd1 in the morning!

[ZacsMumme]

Sorry to keep hijacking, tell me to get lost and start my own thread if I'm annoying you...but Z will bang her head on the bars, pull her own hair, vomit......that is why I did GW as I don't want her to hurt herself. But you are right Zacs Mum - we are not doing brilliantly. How do you keep them safe during sleep training if you do wiwo?

Honey I'd start a new thread so we can all support you there too and give specific advice on your LO

[4isstillnighttime]

Ok, I've updated my old one, it's called how to get my twins to sleep (can't do links, sorry!).

Cuckoo - good luck! I'll be watchig with interest!

Thanks everyone!

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

GW would not work here...it is all or nothing with this kid! She was really using me as a prop (wanted to rub my hand or arm to fall asleep) so I started a modified wi/wo where I did sit by her crib for a bit and then left, instead of just in & out quickly. Mostly now she is just grizzling as she falls asleep, almost a weird loud mantra that sounds bad but is not at all like her "I need you now" cry.

[cuckoochick]

Hi ladies, sorry for my rudeness in not replying. It has been a busy few days.

We have got to do something- BT tonight is horrific. It's 9:15 and she's still awake. I'm sat in the dark of her room. She is alternating between screaming and losing the plot to playing. I'm sat out of her sight and actually silent. She is now just rolling around in her cot but at least lying down now as I must have put her down 30times. I need a proper plan of action as I'm going to have to start working on an evening soon preparing for work. She nursed tonight but I think she was a bit UT at BT tonight as she wasn't tired at all so I took her into C's room for extra stories. Back in and she was just wild. We didn't have a bath tonight so I'm wondering if that hasn't helped but to be honest,  probably clutching at straws.

Since I posted we had that monster BT, then the next night a 2hr NW and last night a STTN. Tonight we're obviously in the I'm not going to bed club.

I am so so cross with myself for letting it get this far. I feel like it is going to be so much harder now that she is older. She is so so relentless and v v angry. C was a breeze compared to this! but then I also feel bad for putting her through it.

So what on earth do I do? Do you think WI/WO will work better? She is losing the plot so am I literally going to be in and out of the door? Do I use a sleepy phrase? She doesn't really have a lovey but I'm trying to get her to take one. If she's standing up, do I lie her down? I'm terrified she's going to really hurt herself as she's in a sleeping bag. Am I allowed to comfort in the cot at all or am I best to say/do nothing?

She finally seems to be settling down now and is more still and quiet. Not sure if she's asleep yet as she hasn't started snoring yet! 😜

Thanks x

[ZacsMumme]

Oh lo don't beat yourself up. You know my T...he was ridiculous for a long time and we had to re ST so many times but now, he's great. You will get there

Do you feel in the fight mindset to do this? Got DH on board? If so I think you want to first get some. Ear plugs, and run through a plan with DH as this will probably take a week. (Not screaming for a week, but a good week to really turn the corner to no crying IS at BT etc yk)

You really have two options.
1) sit in the room. Only interact when she is really upset but try to to PU or touch. Sitting on the floor across the room is a good spot, or by the door. Once she is asleep you leave. The next day do the same thing and hope she starts to settle herself in the cot. After this you can move out the door. This can work if she gets manic when you leave and you feel it's too hard for you to be working out her mantra/angry/real cry etc.
2) WI/WO. (Happy to elaborate etc if you prefer this)

I think wi/wo will work faster. It's also likely to make for one angry long first night though. If you can get through the first night you will be ok. We always comforted on WI with words to start with ie it's time for sleep now darling, you need to lie down and go to sleep by yourself. But if things got too hard to bear I never felt a quick PU and cuddle then back in the cot after a min or so hindered. Some kids though will latch on and you may loose progress.

Both my kids were in sleep sacks too. I guess it is hard because they can hurt themselves. If so I would comfort as usual (ie if you weren't st) but then go back to it once she comes down.

Does any of that make sense?

Lots of hugs and love Nicola you can do this!

[ZacsMumme]

 Also forgot to say that with both my kids when they started to take forever to settle with me trying to apop it was really their way of telling me they wanted to do it on their own, but couldn't....so it ended up being exhaustion that eventually enabled sleep not fun for anyone