Intro from CO

[thebug]

OK, thanks for all the advice. I think I'll try capping the morning nap today so we'll see how that goes. So hard to imagine actually waking him up out of a nap but this morning we have plans to go to a gym with friends so hopefully he'll get past the cranky stage and just start playing I signed us up for a couple of classes this Fall that should be fun but will also make later nap times difficult. Due to the classes, I will either need to have an early nap and cap it, or most nap time way later. I think I'll start with capping it for this week and see how it goes.

After our last vacation, it took us a full two weeks to get back on our time zone even though we were only two time zones away! (that is why I didnt reply sooner b/c I didnt want to do anything when I knew his internal clock was all screwed up). But the past couple of nights he has STTN, or woken at 4am but gone back down with a bottle. We have one more trip and then we're home for 3 straight weeks. As soon as we are home for this longer stretch I will start the gentle removal plan as we put him down, and will start watering down the early AM bottle so as to decrease any reliance on those calories.

I'll check in and let you know how it goes. Thank you for all your help!

[cath~]

Sounds like a good plan. I always feel better when I have a plan in place

Keep us posted how it's going x

[thebug]

Ugh, I feel like we are back to square one. Maybe even worse off than before.

I simply can't even get close to the crib without him throwing a total fit. I try to put him in and keep my hands on him to rub his back and he just stands up and screams bloody murder while reaching out for me. As all my previous posts show, we travel a lot (sometimes same timezone, sometimes one or two timezones away.) We just got back from the holidays (11 days traveling one time zone away) and he's completely off schedule. Add to that he got his first molar in, so I'm wondering if another one is on its way?!

Anyway, I dont know what to do. He's almost 18 months and is waking up in the middle of the night still, wont go in the crib unless he's passed out completely and is napping like crap. I can only get a good nap in the car. Most other times he's only napping 40 minutes (2x/day.) I'm sure he's OT but dont know how to break the cycle?!

Thanks so much for any input!

[cath~]

(((Hugs))) that sounds very tough.

How long has he been so upset by the crib?

Do you give any meds for teething? If so, does that help at all?

Could you post what your last few days have been like in terms of awake and sleep times?

What's his mood like during the day eg happy, clingy, easily upset, calm...?

There is a big WW and dev leap around 17-18 mos and I know with my DD1 sleep went *really* wonky for a few weeks then.  But once she was through the turmoil we were able to get back on track.  It doesn't help much, but lots of ppl have big sleep troubles (a sleep regression) at around this age (there is a support thread above for it too).

[thebug]

Thank you! I will check out the support thread for sleep regression. I think that's probably part of it, but I also think that with our holiday travels he got into some bad habits and that's building together to create a sleep problem. I will try to answer all your questions - so this may be a bit lengthy. Also since we've only been back home for four nights I will post what's happened since returning but also what happened prior to traveling as I *assume* we could get back to that.

Being this upset by the crib has been for a couple of months now. I'm the only one that can put him down. I wait until he's fast asleep and then gently transfer. There was a brief moment in time that he would go in drowsy but that was so long ago. Also I used to be able to put him down and rub his back, but those days are over. With anyone else putting him down he will wail as soon as they try to transfer him. So my husband simply wont put him to bed unless I'm at my wits end, and our babysitter (twice per week) will just let him sleep on her (not good.)

For teething we gave him Motrin last night but it didnt seem to help. He fought sleep for 2.5 hours while I held and rocked him. He tried everything to not go to sleep - first he was hungry, then wanted another book, then wanted milk, wanted to bang on my chest, pet my hair, yadda yadda. I could see his eyes getting heavy and then he'd pounce awake and have a burst of energy. Sweet boy did give me lots of hugs and kisses Then of course he was awake from 1-3:30am, and then woke this morning at 6:30. Ugh.

While we were on vacation for 11 days, his BT was all over the place. I simply had too much family and we had too many events to try to get him in bed early. I did make sure that he got an hour nap in the AM and an hour nap in the PM so that he'd get some decent sleep.
Before traveling his schedule was roughly like this:

4:30-5:30AM Wake (yes this is crazy early and a problem in itself)
Btwn 7:30-8:30 Start morning nap for 40-60 minutes (used to always be an hour but lately was self waking at 40 minutes)
Around 1-2pm Start afternoon nap for 45-60 minutes
Around 6:30-7pm Start bedtime. We were doing earlier for awhile and it was hit or miss on if it helped him sleep longer. Tried later a few times and that was also hit or miss.

Up until recently he has been a happy go-lucky kid, so I always felt like he was getting the sleep he needed (even if it wasn't great for us to have him wake so early). But the past several weeks he's been more clingy and needy during the day. He is such a snuggler, he just wants to be picked up, held and loved on. I love that about him but have noticed a change in his neediness during the day (as well as separation anxiety has increased as well.)

Like I mentioned he always had pretty good mood during the day so I didnt sweat being on a strict schedule, and felt like he was getting the sleep he needed. But now it doesnt' feel that way anymore and frankly we are exhausted with his sleep issues - taking hours to go to sleep, waking for up to 2-3 hours in the middle of the night, and then EMW.... and all at the same time, he must be exhausted! I am hopeful the middle of the night waking is due to teething and traveling issues, but then we're still left with a circus act to get him to sleep and waking at an ungodly hour.

Thanks so much. Sorry that was a novel!

[thebug]

Sorry to add but also want to ask how to handle him sleeping on me. He won't transfer this morning so I'm stuck in the rocking chair in the nursery!

[cath~]

With such a long day I can see why you're letting him have two naps but maybe that is part of the problem and he's in a bit of an UT-ot loop.  I also think that that very early am nap is reinforcing the ews.

Have you seen this link about the 2-1 transition?
From 2 to 1 nap transition (10-12m and older)

Since you have an EW on your hands, I'd try pushing the am nap to around 9.30 and also capping it at say 30 mins (or less).  Then watch for tired signs and try for another (hopefully longer) nap in the afternoon.  As wu hopefully moves later you can cap the am nap even more until it's gone completely.  The am nap should be just enough sleep to get him through until after lunch for his long main nap.

Re STing, since these props have been going on for a while now I think you'll have to use GW.  This is explained here:
Walk In/Walk Out vs. The Gradual Withdrawal Method (HOW TO CHOOSE)

There are also some good ideas here which you can apply to bt and nap times:
HELP YOUR BABY TO FALL BACK TO SLEEP ON HER OWN

Have a read of them and let me know if you have any questions.

At around this age I tried GW with my dd1 and gave up on my first attempt cos she just got sooo upset. However, a couple (?) of weeks later she seemed much happier and less clingy generally (she was through the big developmental leap) and when I tried GW again then, it worked in a week.  So I'd say if you think he's not really ready for GW yet, then you could wait until he's in a happier place generally as you'd be more likely to have quicker success then.  Wdyt?

The not wanting to transfer could also be if he's a bit UT when you're trying for a nap.  Ppl often get more resistance when LO is not fully tired and ready to nap.

[thebug]

Oh my gosh, thank you for all the help. I'm tearing up just reading this in hopes we can get back on track. We tried only one nap before the holidays and he just wasn't ready for it. I like your method and explanation so am thinking well give it a go again starting today.

He STTN last night thanks to friends birthday party at a kids play area. He was so tired - took awhile to fall asleep but then slept til 5:45! I think my plan needs to include heavy activity late in the afternoon.

Should I start all these or just one at a time? Like maybe get on one nap first and then do the GW?
 
Last question - should I bring BT in earlier? Or keep it at 6:30?


Thank you thank you thank you!!!

[cath~]

That's great that he sttn! Physical activity in the afternoon often works really well at helping toddlers to sleep well

It's up to you really whether you just work on modifying his routine for now or if you work on GW too.  What's your gut feeling about it?

If his second nap is short then yes, you might have to bring bt a bit earlier (ESP if his day started really early too) but it depends.  If he does a good second nap after lunch then he should last until that bedtime I'd have thought.  With all these things though it can be a bit of trial and error until you find what works.  At this age though, I think you could be pushing to one nap quite quickly.

[thebug]

Heavy activity in the afternoon is key! STTN again last night but woke at 4:10am. Ugh! Do I still push for a nap at 9:30? That seems so long to wait. He's going to be exhausted! We are shortening the morning nap to 30 min now and will gradually reduce. The afternoon nap length has been hit or miss on length - between 50-90 minutes. Hoping that we can increase that and get him the sleep he needs.

When I do an early bedtime we go straight from dinner to bath to bedtime routine. He's so wound up still when I'm trying to read to him and get him to sleep. I was worried about doing dinner any earlier tho b/c I was worried he'd wake up hungry. (Which does sometimes happen and we're trying to break that habit). Hopefully this is a temporary problem as we regulate everything.

Last concern (for now-hah) - i am feeling like GW is going to be harder than WI/WO. He will scream as I put him in his crib and I'm just standing there. I always PU but need to figure out how to get him in crib calmly before I try GW. Thoughts?

[cath~]

I'm so sorry I thought I'd replied to you but I've just seen I hadn't.

How are things going and what have the last few days looked like?

Can he last until 9.30 after such an EW?

Since he's shown you he can STTN I think key is to shorten the am nap and keep it as late as possible before dropping it entirely.  At this age, ESP after STTN, he should be able to do say 5hr A time. 


How is the evening routine going? Yes, hopefully the ebts should be temporary but I'd try offering dinner say 10-15 mins earlier on those days as it might just keep things a bit calmer for you.  If he's had some physical activity then he'd prob still be ready for it.

Re GW, are you trying to put him in the crib wide awake now? Maybe get him a bit sleepy (almost asleep) first and then try, and gradually reduce how sleepy he is when you put him down. Does that make sense?

[thebug]

To be honest I haven't even tried GW yet. He is getting two molars right now and I know it's bothering him.

 Right now I wait until he's totally passed out to transfer. Anything less and he pops up and starts screaming. So I guess my question is how do I bandle that when we're ready to start GW?  I had really wanted it to be this week but the timing isn't great with the teething.

We all got sick yesterday so I'll have to start again tmrw with the shorter first nap. today is sleep city! Lol tonight is gonna be a nightmare but he's still getting over this so I have to let him sleep. But we're down to 25" morning nap and then afternoon nap starts at 1pm. He's only sleeping for an hour still in the afternoon.

I did buy the book awhile ago but can't find it. Need to update myself on the exact steps of GW.

[cath~]

Yeah, prob best to wait for the molars before starting GW, and let him catch up on sleep while he's ill.

The naps sound good though. Have you had any luck with moving wu later?

His second nap will prob lengthen as you cut the morning nap more.  He's prob not quite tired enough to nap any longer for it

At this age tbh even with GW I think you might have to accept a bit of crying when you start putting him down awake and not totally asleep.  However, if you're consistent and just comfort him in his cot (eg with pd if he stands, your voice and/or shhing, a hand on him, maybe patting) then he will accept that this is the new way.  You can then reduce the amount of assistance you give him from there.

I hope you're all feeling better soon x

[thebug]

We've had some success! We are now putting down drowsy at BT and have a little crying but it's minimal. He's still waking in the MOTN though. Not every night but most nights. I try to go in and reassure him but he really wants help getting back to sleep.
My biggest issue is naps. He gets up SO early and is in need of a catnap by 9ish, sometimes earlier. He will pass out and then is super sleepy when we wake him. We do stroller naps in the AM b/c I don't want to deal with the crying and putting down process of it's for such a short time.
Then in the afternoon we have a heck of a time getting him to go down. He really puts up a major fight. And today he wouldn't nap at all!
How do I get naptime as consistent as bedtime? Also should I just move to one nap each day, and let it be earlier and don't do an afternoon nap but then being BT in earlier? We can't seem to figure this out!

[cath~]

That's great you're having some success with nights now

Could you post what time he wakes up, naps (and how long) and then what time you try for the pm nap, how long he naps for and then what time is BT? That'll make it easier to advise.  He might be UT for the pm nap which could be why he resists it so much.

You're right, one option might be to go for one nap and EBT, then when that's established, work on shifting your whole day later. but that one nap would have to be quite a bit later than 9am