multiple nw - 6m old won't settle

[mycatmonet]

I am guessing ds is mega ot. First teeth came this week and he has a cold. But he has had many nw for months now. He barely does 1 2-3hr stretch a night. Last night was a miracle and he did a 4.75hr stretch. Otherwise the last decent night was a month ago. He wakes 6 or more times. Sometimes every 10min. Can be awake for up to 2 hrs at nw, whether I bf him or not. He generally has 2 naps of 1.25-1.5hrs a day. He went 3-2 ct himself a few weeks ago. I try for a third nap to no avail.
Trouble is now he won't settle at bt or nw, but keeps rolling over and crying. Since we weaned the swaddle he has been tummy sleeping (I pd on his belly) and that way we improved naps which were 35-40min before. So now he rolls front to back and will not settle on either.
I don't know what I can do, if this is developmental how long does it last?

[Kellyjs]

Hey hun, sounds really tough for you atm so sending huge ((hugs)) x

6mo was a nasty time for sleep in this house, with teeth, a ww and all the developmental stuff to deal with. Would you mind posting your current easy so I could take a look and see if anything stands out?

Have you introduced solids? Do you think he might be uncomfortable or in pain aside from the teething?

Great naps though  well done there x

[mycatmonet]

Thanks hun. He started solids, is enthusiastic but I have only given him one meal not even every day so far. I don't think there are any tummy issues.. he did have a cold this week but his nw haven't been worse, and some nights he has done better so that is weird!
Our easy is a bit inconsistent due to ew, long days, nap refusals you name it! Lets try this. ..

Wednesday
Wu 6.15am
E 6.30am bf
A 2h40m
S 8.55am 1h 15m
E 10.15am bf, 11.30am solids
A 2h 55m
S 1.05pm 1h 25m
E 2.35, 4.50, 5.45pm (generally try and tank up) bf
A 4h
Pd 6pm ssh pat 30min
Asleep 6.30pm
Nw 7.05, 8.40, 10.30, 11.15pm, 12.15, 2, 3.30, 4.10, 5.30am (some nf some ssh pat resettle)
Thursday
Wu 8.05am
E 8.40am bf
A 2h 40m
S 10.45am 1h 5m
E 12pm, 2.15pm bf
A 2h 40m
S 2.30pm 40min
E 3.15, 4.45, 6.15pm bf
Pd attempt 6.30pm
Asleep 7.35pm
Nw 12.20am (best sleep in many weeks), 3.20 (for 1.5hrs), 5.50am
Friday
Wu 7.05am
E 7.35am bf
A 3h 15m
S 10.20am 40min (fed to sleep as was not settling)
E 11.15am bf, solids 1.15pm
A 2h 30m
S 1.30pm 5min
E 1.40, 3.30, 5.30, 6.30 bf and feed to sleep
Bt asleep 6.40pm
Nw 7.15, 7.55, 11.30pm, 12.20, 2.50, 5.20am
Saturday
Wu 7.10am
E 7.30, 9, 10.30am bf
Failed nap pd attempt 9.25am
A 4h 50m
S 12.00pm 1h 20m
E 1.25 bf
A 2h 30m
S 3.50pm 25min
E 3.50, 6.30, 7.10pm
Asleep bt 7.30pm
Nw 8, 11.20pm, 3.05, 5am, awake an hour bf and back to sleep at 6am for 5min
Sunday
Wu 6.15
E 7.40am
A 3hr if from 5am nw
S 8am 1h 25m
E 9.30am bf, 11.50am feed to sleep
A 2h 35m
S 12.00pm 1h
E 1.10pm bf, 2.15pm solids
A 2h 55m
S nap in carrier 3.55pm 40min (first third nap in 3weeks)
E 4.45, 5.45pm, 7.10pm feed to sleep
Bt asleep 7.40pm
Nw 8.10, 11.05pm, 2, 4am
Monday
Wu 6.15am
E 6.15am, 8.25am feed to slerp
A 2h 25m
S 8.40am nap 50min

So it is a mess. Now aping sleep as he rolls over and won't be ssh patted and voice doesn't work. He wants to be picked up.
I was aiming for A 2.75-3h but it is a train wreck now. Any advice appreciated! X

[Kellyjs]

Cor blimey, you weren't joking were you?! 

Let's start off by saying I think you've done a great job of keeping the day to a reasonable length throughout all of this.

Tbh, my first thought was OT by BT. There's a couple of 4hr to BT in there, in this house that would have meant definite early NW's. However, when he had that 3rd nap day, he did the early NW too didn't he? Hmmmm...

Was he an independent sleeper before all this happened? I see a lot of 'feed to sleeps' I'm there that I'm wondering if it's become a prop issue. Nothing you've done wrong whatsoever, I would've done the same to get him to nap, but I'm thinking once the A time is increased a little perhaps we would work on withdrawing that in time? What do you think?

So going back, the best morning nap you had was at 3hrs A first thing. I would start there. Firstly because he's trying to wake up consistently around the 5-5.30am mark, so I think he's calling for an increase in A time in the morning. He might also cope with a 3hr second A too if that first nap is good, as 2hr 40 after a good nap gives you an UT 40mins nap.

Strangely, the best daytime naps were on the first day you posted, but we're the worst NW's. I'm going to get some more eyes on this for you too hun x

[jessmum46]

Hi hun, sorry things are rough for you.

I agree very much with Kelly's advice about the routine.  I would stick with 3h A first thing and then if the nap is good, another 3h A.  Anything less you'll be struggling to get to a decent BT without another nap, and if that's not going to happen no point in banking on it!  I do wonder sometimes though if you might be pushing BT too late.  Naps are consistently not good, so I'd be sticking with 6pm regardless for now and even 5.30pm if it goes dreadfully (e.g. Friday with the 5 mins sleep at 1.30pm).  The day with 3 naps was 14.5h long counting from the 5am NW so I guess that would explain the continued early NWs.  I would again have probably gone for 6pm bedtime.  I found that pushing BT later on days with a later WU or better than usual naps would always backfire, I guess because DD needed the catch-up and by pushing her BT later, I took the extra sleep away from her.

I'd probably agree it sounds like there are some prop issues too.  How do you feel about tackling them?  I kind of feel like the nights/routine aren't going to get sorted really until LO can go to sleep alone  when you don't feed to sleep, how do you do your shh pat?  Are you doing it until LO is fully asleep? Or just until calm? 

Just a thought.....but I notice LO is feeding pretty often.  Do you think there is a chance that because of the feed to sleep etc that he isn't getting 'proper' feeds with plenty of hind milk, so could genuinely be waking (at least sometimes) at night for hunger? 

[mycatmonet]

Ok motn so i will cone back in the am..

Oh I have only been feeding to sleep this past week as ds won't be settled by ssshpat. He was doing great, since we ct the swaddle and pd on his belly. I could sometimes leave the room at naps and he'd ss. Bt ssshpat til asleep, I guess harder to pd as ot. Now when we pd he flips over and rolls around so he won't stay there to be ssshpatted on his back, but cannot settle if he lies on his back
 Gets all worked up.

Will work on ebt, but it is a struggle at that time of day with dd. She is still insisting I do EVERYTHING to do with ber meals and bath and bt routine. If dh even touches her food plate she goes nuts. I am her slave lol. And dh was doing a good job of pd at bt but he has back issues atm and holding ds/bending over cot is painful. I just wish I could be in 2 places at once! Solve all the dramas.

Ds is also so happy and I guess os by days end. He always seems to not be ready for bt! And then days he has been pd earlier dd will scream or shriek in the bath and wake ds up... I just feel so overwhelmed and like I can't win... sorry sounds like a bunch of excuses. Just a vent I think xx

[jessmum46]

Hugs Caitlin, it's tough enough with one and I'm finding out that it's harder with two!  There's always a compromise to be made somewhere isn't there?  Sorry for misunderstanding about the feed to sleep, I totally understand you do what you can when things are a bit crazy.

Can you use white noise for DS if you put him down early to drown out the noise of DD in the bath?  And maybe for DD too so you can move to more of a PUPD (or just shh pat until calm) for DS and stop using shh pat all the way to sleep?  I know he'll get more OT in the process but I'd think it may be worth doing to rule that out as a reason for NWs. 

Not something you asked about here....but just from what you said I wonder whether (given you do have two LOs to look after, not just DD) that you might need to tackle the DD wanting you for everything thing?  I know it'll be really tough and there will be tantrums to deal with.  But just thinking from what's been going on with us, I was trying to do everything in the way DD wanted as I felt really guilty for not spending as much time with her as before.  But actually I realised that meant I was constantly putting DS second which wasn't fair either.  Not meant to be critical at all balancing the needs of two is so hard and I am definitely not getting it right.  But just brainstorming how you could possibly improve things as I'm sure you're totally shattered with those nights.  More (((hugs))) xx

[mycatmonet]

Thanks Katherine,  I know what you mean and your intent, thanks lovely. Dd is a handful, i hoped she might grow out of it but hmmm maybe not. Both kids have white noise btw - wouldn't do without it! Forgot to mention dd goes nuts if I am in the room with ds doing pd and the door is shut, bangs on the door screaming and has a meltdown. If i leave the door open a bit she pushes it open like a game by throwing a balloon at it lol. Had hoped she would get over this mummy slavery thing herself but um I guess it has been 6mths now. ..
I hope to ditch feed to sleep asap. Will try today. Ds wasn't fighting me and rolling on cot pd during nw laast night. Maybe he has achieved something developmental now. But ugh what with teeth and his cold this past week I had to bring in the boob for  sleep time, was last resort!

[mycatmonet]

Ok so yesterday our day was
Monday
Wu 6.15
E  6.15, 8.15am feed to sleep
A 2h25min
S 8.40am 50min
E 11.30am feed to sleep
A 2h20m
S 11.50am 1h 20m
E 1.15, 3.30pm feed to sleep (had tried a carrier nap but he wasn't falling asleep and it was getting a bit late)
A 2h35min
S 3.45pm on me 30min
E 6.30, 7.10, 8.20pm feed to sleep (this kid was hyper and happy playing- os and ot)
A 4h30min - oh yes. I was not happy lol
S bt asleep 8.45pm
Nw 11.05pm, 1.05am, 4.50am, 6.20am (each nf 30 or 40min)
E 6.20-7.20 dozing on the boob though not sure how asleep he was for that 40min
So I count wu as 7am I guess.

Today Tuesday I pd without feeding for the first nap and with a little ssh pat he was asleep 9.50am. Just a little rolling but not like the past few days!

[Kellyjs]

Hey sweetie,

I think that last CN is messing it all up isn't it? I think what yesterday showed is that after a short nap in the morning 2hr 20 gave you a reasonable nap. It may be that if he does do a short nap for the first one, 2hrs 30mins second A would let you have a better nap. If he has a short nap first, I think I would do EBT rather than a CN. Either way, I still think you should work towards 3hrs before each nap and I think you should get 2 good ones?

How did the first nap go this morning?

[mycatmonet]

With 3h As today first nap was 1h10min, second was 1h15min taking into consideration a resettle at 50min for 5min or so.
It I 5.30pm now... aiming for 6.30 bt... if we can wrangle it!

[jessmum46]

Good job hun! And hugs for dealing with DD, sounds like she's struggling you're doing a great job, however it feels xx

[mycatmonet]

Ugh!!! Pd at 6.20pm for bt (managed to get dh to bath dd, after an initial protest they had fun until she got out then it was yelling for me), no tired signs beforehand. He was asleep by 6.40pm.

He slept for 10min.

From 6.50-7.30pm he was a crying mess, not settling, rolling over, only calming in arms. He thrashed about and I think he smashed his face into the cot bars... so ended up just sobbing for ages in my arms and I think he was asleep when I pd.

So bt 7.30pm. A was 4h20min.

Dyt he needs a longer A before bt? I was kinda aiming for a 2-3-4 type A. But maybe 2.5, 3, 4. I get he is ot and i want to fix that but dd never did 12h nights no matter what we did. I am thinking he is lsn...

[Martini~]

Just popping some ideas: can he resettle at night at all? Or does every of his NW means you have to help?

[Kellyjs]

My DD will only do just over 4hrs to BT now and she's on one nap! Anything near to what your doing will give us early NW's and she's 13mo! She has always preferred a short A to bed though.

I think persevere for a few days and see if he settles into it. If not, we can revisit x