Help with A times - almost 9 mo old

[1sttimemamma]

Hey all! I'm looking for a bit of help with my DS who turns 9 months in about 10 days.

We are getting horrible night wake ups - like the past two nights after he's fallen asleep, he's woken up around 10 times in a couple hours. He also cries before bedtime.

Yesterday was:
WU 7:30
Nap 10:30 to 12 (I woke him up)
Nap 3 to 3:45
BT - I believe my husband started at 6:45 - he cried with patt/shh until 7 30ish?

Today
WU 7am
Nap 10:30 (I put him down at 10:15, but he played around until 10:30) - he's still sleeping and it's 11:35am

Previously, I was getting 2 naps of 1 hr 20 min and a fairly decent bedtime. We've always had night wakes - usually once al night to feed.

I feel the timing of bedtime is wrong - that's why he's crying so much and then waking so much in the beginning.

I aim for 3 hours awake time - but I push it by 15 min sometimes.

[jessmum46]

I'd suggest probably you need to push the A times a bit and either go for two long naps and a longer day, 12.5/13h, or one long (up to 2h) and one shorter nap.  Up to 4h A time isn't uncommon at this age so 3h may be a bit on the short side now.  What do you think?

[1sttimemamma]

I agree! However, I'm unclear how to do it because the bedtime could be much later right? Or am I not thinking clearly??

Today - he woke up at 7:30am. I put him down for a nap at 10:40ish?? I played around and didn't fall asleep until close to 11. I assume it will be short - just cause I feel like it will be.
But if he woke at 7:30am and I put him down at 11am and he sleeps until 12:30. Then another nap at 4?? until 5:30 and then bedtime at 9:30pm?? I just don't understand how to fit it all in. I know when he goes down for 1 nap it's a better bedtime, but 9:30 seems awfully late right?

[jessmum46]

No usually when the A times lengthen, you do one long and one shorter nap, and a shorter A time after the shorter nap.  So could be something like:

WU 7.30
Nap 11-12.30
Nap 4pm for 45 mins-1h
BT 7.30

[1sttimemamma]

So you wake them up?
If the AM nap is short, then the PM nap should be long - is that ok?

I put him down 3.5 hours after WU and he's still in his crib talking/ playing. So does that mean I need longer A time? He seemed very tired to me - rubbing his eyes, etc. As soon as I stick him in, he starts standing and playing and talking...

[Florena49]

Though id share what we are doing in the last couple of days ( still get two night wakings though)

7.20wu
11.21nap-12.32.            4A
4.32-4.52.                       4A
7.35BT.                           2.40A

I let him sleep for the first nap, he does two sleep cycles- 1.20min and i wake him from his second nap after 20 minutes. He isnt a happy bunny if i wake him, but if i dont and let him sleep 40 min he will do 3.30-3.45 A time, which makes for a late BT. It was very much trial and error really and still trying to figure out how to eliminate the two night wakings.

[jessmum46]

Playing around was generally a sign of UT here.  I'd push it to 3h45 and see if he settles better.  It's fine to do short am and long pm naps of that's what you'd prefer

[1sttimemamma]

Thanks all! It's pretty clear that he can do pretty close to a 4 hour A time before his first nap. But it gets a little tricky after that. Today he did
WU 7:45am
Nap 11:30 to 1pm
Nap 4:25 - ?? (I will wake him at 5??)

So then bedtime will be?? 8?

[1sttimemamma]

to continue
I woke him at 5:20
He was clearly not tired for a long time. I started bf him at 8:30 and he finally got drowsy at 9pm. He fell asleep at 9:05pm.

This is a late night...is this what we deal with until he gets to one nap?

[Florena49]

bT does get later, Is he LSN? I think that was too long A time after a short nap.

Just my experience, i find that Os doesnt get drowsy before bedtime unless he is just so so tired (overtired) so it is a bit of a guessing game here, as no he is crawling he can literally go on forever. The other night he was in a brill mood, but he fell asleep for a second sitting up.... i would say that after a 30-40 min nap 3.30A time would work. This is just out experience you will know your LO much better.

[1sttimemamma]

What is LSN?

Well, after going to sleep at 9, he's up now starting around 1am crying off and on. It's pretty rough.

Does a 3.30 A time mean 3 hours and 30 min? Or less?

[Florena49]

Sorry low sleep needs and yes around 3 hours and 30 minutes.

Also u might find that u will have to shorten the second nap to 20 minutes to keep a reasonable BT and after 20 minutes he will need a shorter A time too.

I know night wakings are rough we have suffered here too, Oskar has never slept through, the best he has done is sleep from BT to 3am.....hang in there.

Im going back to work soon, so this is what we started doing now to keep some sanity.
I started waking him at 7 so we start the day at the same time, first nap is 4 hours later then another 4 hours until second nap. second nap is still trial and error, but generally after 20 min nap he can do 2hours 30min and after 30-40 min nap he will do 3hours 30 mins.

[jessmum46]

I'd do a much shorter A time after a CN.  We were on 3h45-4h for our first 2 A times at that age, but only 2h15-30 after a CN x

[1sttimemamma]

is 1 hour considered a cat nap?

[Florena49]

I think one sleep cycle or less, so less than 45minutes is a catnap.correct me if im wrong someone. For us 1hour is ok and Os would be able to do pretty much his normal A time.

[1sttimemamma]

What would you do with this?? Today after going to bed at 9pm, he woke up at 7:30am. I had to get out of the house for the cleaners and he fell asleep in the stroller at around 10:15 and slept maybe 20 minutes. I put him down for a nap at home around 12:30pm. Let's say he sleeps until 2pm. Would you try for a 3rd nap ? Or do bedtime at 6pm?

[Florena49]

If he makes up for missed sleep when u do early BT then I would go for that, If you know that he will be up at 5am tomorow because of early BT then I would do a 20 min nap just to get to BT. It really does depend how your LO copes with early BT. Some just make up for missed day sleep and still wake at their nor al time and others wake up really early because of Early BT

[1sttimemamma]

No - he's not great at making up missed sleep at night. He woke from his nap at 1:40, so I just put him down for a little nap at 4:40. So wake him up at 5pm and bedtime at 7:45pm?

This all feels like a guessing game. And he's on the move so much I can't tell when he's tired. It's not until I pick him up and turn on the white noise that he starts rubbing his eyes and digging his face into my chest and seems very tired. He could crawl all night if I let him!

[1sttimemamma]

I woke him at 5:10. Put him down at 7:50 and he's crying then yelling then talking and repeat. It feels like it was too soon??

[jessmum46]

I'd have thought too late, actually.  A 20 min nap does very little in terms of restorative sleep, so effectively he pretty much did a 6h+ A time.  I'd have probably gone for more like 7pm if it was me......but, do you have a 'normal' BT?  Or does it vary each day?

[1sttimemamma]

It changes everyday! I wish we had a normal bedtime.

[Florena49]

Do u think it would be easier for u if u had set nap times? Your days would be a bit more predictable and it would be easier to tweak things too.

[1sttimemamma]

I have always wanted that, but the baby seems to do different nap lengths everyday, so then bedtime is different to compensate for that. You know what I mean?

[Florena49]

Yes i know what you mean, we had that too for a while, but it has got easier during the day once we started waking him at the same time every day.

So i wake him at 7
And he goes down for his first nap after 4 hours, so the first nap has become more predictable after doing the same thing for a week or so. Then I do second nap 4 hours later and like for you the A time after the second nap is still hit and miss.

[jessmum46]

Generally I don't think moving BT by too much helps.  Just my experience, but I think having a 'normal' BT that you aim for, with the option to go a bit early if naps are rubbish, can really help LOs settle into more of a sleep rhythm, especially approaching 1yo or older. 

Obviously the usual BW approach at this age is to work with A times rather than setting times.  But there are mums here with experience of set naps from an early age (I only did it after 1yo) and it can be very good for angel/textbook personalities.  Touchy/spirited babies may struggle more to get out of the OT that often develops when first setting nap times.  Just from my experience though, what set naps AREN'T are a guarantee of the exact same nap lengths happening every day.  You know when naps start because that's what you determine.  But LO may sleep more one day and less the next, and that's ok.  If you think that would cause you to worry though, I would stick with A times for now, perhaps aiming for a total A time in the day of 10.5h or so (typical sleep needs at 9 months being 14-15h per 24h). 

[1sttimemamma]

Me again. so he WU today at 8am - I woke him actually. 1st nap was at 11:40ish to 1:30. Then he did a 2nd nap from about 4:45 to 5:15pm. I am trying bedtime and tried to put him down at 7:20, but he's just not having it. He just wants to get down and play. So instead of going thru all the crying, I'm just letting him play right now. He's not at all sleepy when he's breastfeeding. My gut says he's just not tired.

Do I have this all wrong?

[1sttimemamma]

Put him down at 8pm, and he's SCREAMING (i'm helping him). I cannot figure this out. He had a really long 1st nap? So maybe it was too much daytime sleep?

[jessmum46]

You know him best hun and if you think he's not tired, you'll need to cut some sleep somewhere or go for a longer day.  Putting him down at 8pm was only a 12h day with pretty reasonable naps (and less than 10h total A time) so he may well have been UT.  When did he eventually settle and how was the night?

[1sttimemamma]

He fell asleep at 8:30 and woke at 3:45am and then 7:20am. Pretty good night (for us) !

I just wonder if I put him down at 8:30 if I would have prevented the crying.

You guys are the best. Thanks for helping!

[Florena49]

Thats a brill night by our standards too, it does look like he can handle that A time after 30 min nap

[1sttimemamma]

There is a 9 month sleep regression right? Now he's crying when I go to put him down for naps. So, he tries to lean out of my arms (away from the crib) and he cries. Today I tried a little early to get him down for a nap because we have someplace to be and he was leaning to get out of my arms. I let him play for 30 min and tried again and he did the same thing again. For naps he just cried for maybe 2 minutes and then starts playing and chatting.

Hopefully all this crying is a phase??

[Florena49]

There is yes and it was fairly rough for us, nap shortened, a lot of fussing, crying before nap time, lasted all in all about 2 weeks and then very siddenly ended and Oskar has acquired a number of new skills and has become much more mobile. What did help is extending his A time a little, although it went back to how it was after the two weeks. Hang in there

[1sttimemamma]

So, today DS woke at 8am. Slept from 12:10 to 1:30. Tried for nap at 4:45 - no way. Trying now at 5:30pm - crying.
There is a chance he just won't nap at all - so when do I do bedtime?? If he does nap, I will only let him do 20 min, but then I don't know when to try for bedtime.
Am I doing something wrong?? He's been fussier than normal. I'm wondering if he's getting a cold? Or teeth? He's not  technically in a wonder week, but he sure is acting like it.

[Florena49]

I think 4.45 was way to early for him considering he can handle a longer A time. If he totally refuses the nap I would do BT as early as 6.30, he will be OT thats inevitable, but hopefully he will catch up during the night for missed day sleep.

[Florena49]

Ur not doing anythibg wrong, I found the developemntal stuff from 8.5 month until now has affected sleep and moods a lot. os has mastered flipping over from his back and standing ip in the cot, it took me over an hour to get him to sleep last night, when usually he settles himself within 10 minutes.
It will all pass.....

[1sttimemamma]

Hi again! We had been doing great for a little bit. I would do a nap 4 hours after he woke up, then another 20 to 30 min nap 4 hours after that. Then bedtime was a little tricky, but generally 2 hr 45 min later would be bedtime. He would wake one time a night to eat - generally around 3am. Then wake up around 6:30am.

Now our night wake ups are coming around 2 hr 30 min after bedtime. Last night he was crying/upset for an hour. He didn't want food. He was just upset. I stayed with him till he fell back asleep and I noticed he's having these big jolts a few minutes after he falls asleep. Like those jolts I feel when I dream about falling - ykwim?? He woke at least 2 more times in the night - husband did one pat/shh and then I fed him around 3am. He woke pretty early.

Today we were out and about and he fell asleep in the car for his morning nap. He kept doing that jolt thing again.

Are the jolts due to being over tired? Are the frequent night wakings due to being OT?

[jessmum46]

It does sound like it, yes.  Can you try BT any earlier, say 2h after last nap?