where to for nearly 10mo?

[3littlemen]

I'm not trying to fix what isn't broken, just wondering if I'm missing something here. We've gradually moved out first a time, and second and third a timesn vary. Our days are often long, and as a result I'm sure, our nights are short and we get EW (which I'm over). Any ideas how to get a 12hr night - without an ew bf? or is that right up there with the tooth fairy, santa claus and abominable snowmen (apparently they exist, but no one has actually seen one)....(feeling a little OT'd and pessimistic I am!)

Last few days....
Friday
up 5.50
nap (in at 9.30) 9.45 - 11.15
nap (in at 2.30) 2.35 - 3.50
bt (in at 7.30) 7.45

Sunday
ew 5am, bf in our bed and back to sleep
wu 6.30
nap 10-11.55
nap 3.25-4.05 (woken by b'bros)
bt 7.25

Monday
stirred 1ish, 3ish, in our bed??? too tired to remember
wu 6.30
nap (in at 9.40) 10-12
nap (in at 2.55) 3.10-4.15
bt (in at 7.15) crying on and off until 8.10

Today
redummied, pulled covers up at 4.30
5.35 up again and fed in our bed
wu 6.35
nap (in at 10.05 - running late) 10.30-11.40
nap (in at 2.50) 3.00 -

Typing it, it seems I've nothing to complain about. He might stir once or twice during the night, and I just check his dummies are nearby and he's got a cover over him. I've taken to feeding him and putting him into our bed, only so that he will continue to sleep. this happened since I dropped the df a month ago or so. Since dropping it though he does sleep better throughout the night. I'm wondering if I need to cap his sleeps or something so that his day doesn't get too long... I do try to keep his days to 13hr tops, in bed by 7.15pm, so hopefully asleep by 7.30pm at the latest. He still is bf, though this is the ew one, after both naps and bt, but he doesn't bf to sleep at bt anymore (he just doesn't always nod off now). He is on solids breaky, lunch and dinner with the occasional rusk or milk arrowroot biccy thrown in for a snack. He's trying to walk (and v frustrated), and has gotten over the last lot of teeth (4 in a week). His weight gain has steadied but he still has two forearm fat rolls - which dr said was a good sign of 'condition' (no kidding!). Eats like a trooper.

any ideas? just would like to get a wu that doesn't require me to bf him when he stirs at 4/5 .... mind you, there's a good chance if we just bf on wu he wouldn't be interested cos he'd be too AWAKE (read distracted) anyway!!

[jessmum46]

Have you read this? 10/11 month old sleep gone wonky? Read this first!

Startings of the 2-1 I'm afraid . Your best day/night there was a 13h day with a long nap (2h) and a short nap (40 mins).  I would actually aim for that on a more regular basis, decide whether you'd prefer a long am or long pm and then cap the other nap to keep the day to 13h max.  We actually started having some one nap days at 10 months (mainly due to pm nap refusal) so although I don't think you're ready for one nap just yet, that's the direction you're headed in over the next few months.  Good luck!

[3littlemen]

Yesterday finished with
nap 3-3.36awake but went back to sleep until I woke him at 4pm
bt asleep and in at 7.15

Last night was awful... awake at 10 (body jerking-yay) then 2, then 4 and awake at 5.50.

ouch.

I'm planning on doing long am and short pm...so would you suggest that today would look like
wu5.50
a 3hr30
nap 9.20-11.20 (capped)
a 3h20
nap 2.40pm-3.20pm(capped)
a 3h30
bt 7

I'm pretty certain that the first a time is good at 3h30 (after a shoddy night anyway) but not so sure about the others. I was pretty sure that 2-1 was where we were going, but didn't know if there was too much day sleep/a time/day time etc.
Thanks.

[jessmum46]

That looks ok although he may be a bit OT for BT with a full A time after a short nap.  Given it was a bad night you could perhaps allow a little longer for the pm nap today, or go with 40 mins but be prepared to start BT 30 mins or so early if he's struggling x

[3littlemen]

well, I think the washing machine spin cycle may have been easy to go through!

wu 5.50
napped 9.38-11.15
napped 2.38-3.28 (woken)

L dropped both times within 5 mins of being put to bed. I guess that should have tipped me off. Couldn't get bt any earlier (DH was watching) and tbh, L was his normal happy self. bt 6.45 and asleep straight out.

WE DID SLEEP FROM 6.45pm to 6.25am. We did however cry (with whole lot of trouble settling) for 1h20 at 11.45pm and again at 4am for 20m. I didn't bf, and didn't put him in our bed. So after a 10hr night, do I shorten the first a time or leave at 3h30?

ok, so today's plan
wu6.25
nap 10-12 (capped)
nap 3.30-4.10 (capped)
+3h a time'
in bed by 7.10??? the day's getting long again....

[3littlemen]

ok so I went with cues and he was red eyed and grumpy by 9.20, put him in at 9.35 and out by 9.40...It's now 11.45am, and I don't want to wake him....should I??? Damned if you do, damned if you don't!!!

argh....

Mumma running wholely and solely on coffee today!

[Mom-of-boys]

Just wanted to say I'm going through the exact same thing.  I'm lucky if DS2 wakes up at 6:00, usually it's between 5:00-5:30.  This is what I've been doing so far...
Wu 6:00 am
Nap 9:30-11:30 (capped). (If he's up at 5:00 I start the nap at 9:00)
Second nap 3:15-3:30 (max 45 min) - this one he usually wakes up at the 45 min mark
Bt. 7:00 pm
 
We're doing a long am nap, short pm nap too.  This seems to have worked pretty well the past 2 weeks but lately bt has been a bit of a struggle - although I think that's teething/developmental related.  Maybe an idea for you to try?  I also have a hard time waking up my DS2 when's he's having a long nap, but lately if I don't, he just refuses his second nap and that leads to a disastrous evening!

[3littlemen]

Thanks Mom-of-boys for replying. It's nice to have someone on the 'same boat' with you! You're little bloke is Wesley I see, Wesley is L's middle name!

He ended up waking as I posted so that's good. L was beautifully happy!! In for next nap at 2.40pm, asleep by 2.50pm, so 3hr a time. Off to wake him now after 40min, so I guess that's a 3hr til bt?? Making it 6.30? 

Fingers crossed today doesn't bite me in the bum! (Mind you, in my current state, that could only be a good thing - it might wake me up!)

[jessmum46]

Sounds like he needed the catch up.  Fingers crossed for BT x

[3littlemen]

Well, we were in bed by 6.30 and out by 6.45pm... guess who slept through continuously until 5.45!!!! YAhoo.... Now if only to replicate it!

Is it normal/common to have 3 different a times throughout the day? (Yesterday was 3h30,3h05,3h15)

[Mom-of-boys]

Yay for a great sleep! 

[jessmum46]

Fantastic!  Yes it's ok to have different A times throughout the day, the shorter ones may have reflected that he still had some OT to catch up on x

[3littlemen]

Today was a little different despite the good brilliant night last night,

wu 5.45am
napped (in at 9.05) 9.10/15?-10.05/10?am
napped (in at 1.25) 1.40pm - 2.40-3.20pm
in bed asleep by 6.30
8.20pm now and murmuring (but not crying - at least not yet!)fx

I'm pretty happy with the naps, he puts himself to sleep, and sometimes resettles himself (as he did today). Do you think today looked UT then? and if so, which a time do I shift out?? I don't mean to count my chickens but if the stars should align Liam starts sleeping consistently for 11hours no drama, how do I then shift bt? Or should I wait for that alignment first?!

[jessmum46]

I would start with your first A time and push that out until you get a longer nap.  Once the routine stabilises you can shift your day in increments as you would to adjust for DST

[3littlemen]

Thanks Katherine. The last few mornings (for whatever reason) his first nap has been under 45min so today I moved it out another 15min and got 1h30. Last night he'd had 10h30 minus half hour or so up crying (new teeth maybe).

At this point, does UT still give you happy long NW or has that changed? L officially started walking on Saturday, 2days shy of his 10mo b'day, but I'd hardly think that would cause him to wake up crying would it? I can see the tooth poking through the gum - hence I'm thinking it might just be that.

I'm sure I've checked the FAQ's but is 3hr too much day sleep (regardless of how it comes)?

[jessmum46]

I think UT can give you happy long NWs at any age.  I think we've had some crying NWs related to UT too but if you can see a tooth has just broken the gum, I'd probably blame that first.

This link might help with day sleep amounts: Typical Amounts of Day and Night Sleep Looks like 2.5-3h would be pretty average at 10 months.

[3littlemen]

Thanks Katherine. I just noticed your DS2 - our DS2 is Ben as well (though just Ben, not Benjamin!).

Today looked like this
up 6.20 (crying NW at 11 and again at 3 for half an hour got the better of me and in our bed from then)
napped 10-11.35(stirred)-12pm when I woke him
napped (in at 3.35) 3.45-4.30 when I woke him (he was not happy with me either!)
in bed at 7.25, asleep 7.35pm
So the day is looking textbook beautiful. I've dosed him up for meds at bt, but unless the naps go screwy and the nights don't eventually settle down once the tooth/teeth appear - would you say leave as is? How would I know if the last nap/a time isn't right?

[jessmum46]

I think leave as is for now - I found it near-on impossible to tweak during teething.  Once the teeth are through I would say you'd know the last A was wrong if you start getting BT resistance (UT) or early NWs (OT) - at least that's generally what happened here.

[3littlemen]

oh my oh my... nw crying at 1ish and then from 3.45am to 5.10am....oh boy. didn't help me having a migraine and DH being as sympathetic to L as a bull in a china shop... L did go back to sleep until 7 though.

mmm, here's hoping it's teeth.

Thanks again for your help Katherine.

[jessmum46]

(((Hugs))) for the rough night, hope today is better x

[3littlemen]

oh dear..... a good day, woke from last nap (longer one of the day as first one had been UT), bt 7.30 like a dream, then up crying at 11.30 and again at 3.30. At least the 3.30 lasted only 1h15 or so.... unlike yesterday's, but by golly, I hope it's teeth... mind you, I've also done a reasonable job of keeping him in his cot (not putting him in with us) and settling him there as opposed to cuddling with me in bed, so maybe he is protesting that as well.

mmm....need coffee... preferably IV with a good helping of chocolate on the side!

Today
nw's 11.25pm (ss) 3.25am for at least 1h10
wu 6.20
napped (in at 9.45) 9.50-10.45 woke crying
napped (in at 2.13) 2.15-4.22 (woken by me)

how long til I can assume it's not teeth, and it's something else? dyt??

[jessmum46]

The really bad bit of teething only ever lasted a few days with us, so I'd say if it's still happening in a week you may want to re-evaluate x

[3littlemen]

Well at least that's over.... no mad crying sessions last night Thank Goodness!! But naps are weird today...

woke 6.20
napped (in at 9.50) 9.55-10.30
napped (in at 1.50) 2.00-3.00

He went down really easy last night at 7.30, so don't quite know how that works out. L's murmuring to himself now, but I don't like my chanvces of him going back to sleep... guess that means EBT! of 6!!!

[3littlemen]

finished with bt 6.46, nw at 10.15 crying til resettled at 10.24, then wu this morning at 5.10 with possibly a biochemical hazard in his nappy!! Pooowee.....

Just wondering, what is the correct approach to an ew? Do you go for a shorter than usual a time, regular a time, or regular nap time?

It has always stumped me, and I think that is where half the problem might be found!!

[jessmum46]

Ha, well if there was a right answer.....

I think probably the BW way is to go by A times, possibly a tiny bit shorter than usual if night was really bad but not too short or you risk encouraging further EWs.  Other schools of thought would say stick with normal nap time (if you have a usual clock time) and let LO sort it out.  Might be a risky strategy if your LO doesn't handle OT well though....

[3littlemen]

Last night wasn't too bad, though it helped that I caved in and put Liam in our bed around 3, but he did sleep = restlessly - until 6.20am. I was aiming for a 10am nap, latest, but life got in the way and we couldn't get home, so he collapsed in the ranger  at 10.50...and slept until 1.45Pm!!! I have put him down now at 6.06pm. He was just starting to make out he'd had enough (which he never normally does, on regular days when we stay at home). So yes, I know we're 2-1, but do I now start to work that first a time out to 4h+? gradually of course...I'd just been holding it stationary (or attempting to) at 3h30/45 tops.

[jessmum46]

Yes I'd slowly start pushing it out, 10-15 mins extra at a time and hold for a good few days-week before changing again.

[3littlemen]

yep well I have learnt that those ew cry fests last week weren't necessarily OT... at 6.46pm he woke up and it's been on for young and old ever since.... 1h20+ oh  boy. at least I'm not asleep trying to do it....not pretty.

obviously first a time was wwwwwwwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyy too long...and a time until bed time much the same. But yikes, should I have woken him instead of letting him sleep that long???!!! DH wants to know why if he's so tired, does he just not go to sleep!! yep, if I knew that L would be asleep!!

[jessmum46]

No I never woke DD up on a one nap day unless we hit 3 hours.  But if you want to get a second nap in I would wake by 2h x

(Btw - your DHs question is about as sensible as all those people who say "he'll sleep when he's tired"!! Lol )

[3littlemen]

at least DH sticks with me - if I say this is what we're doing he does it...actually DH will go to sleep at 3am with earmuffs on, so at least someone is sleeping. Well he crashed at 8.50pm, and slept straight through until 6am. So that explains my 9hr nights - OT ones. Now I don't know whether to push a time today or leave as is. We're not going anywhere so it's not like it'll be late today. I think i'll aim for 3h45 as last time he had a good night (11hr) we got an UT nap on 3h30. What's the worse that can happen???!!!! **sarcasm***

[3littlemen]

This morning he woke at 5, and murmured/half attempt at crying, until 5.30 when I fed him and popped him bed with me and he slept til 6.40am.
wu 6.40
napped (in at 10.30) 10.50-12.50 (woke himself  - which is good cos I had no idea what I was going to do!!)
and now???
put him in at 3.50pm, fully expecting play time. 4.05pm and he's down and out. I'm guessing I should wake at 4.30, right? and then bt, 3/3hr30??? from then? I'm at a bit of a loss for where to go with it. I've finally got him 'used' to a 7.30bt I think, and don't want to lose it, a 6.30am-7.30pm day is beautiful as far as I can see (well better than a lot of other scenarios we've had!

And even though 7.30-5am is not sttn 12hr, I'm happy!!! I can handle that. But that was based on a day of UT naps yesterday I think! 45min and then an 1h05 and 4hr til bt!!

[jessmum46]

How did it go?  Your plan sounded a good one x

[3littlemen]

Well shock horror, what a night! I put him in his bed at 7.25 (3h20 from his CN) and he protested crying until 7.50pm, when he fell asleep. He stirred at 4.15am, when I relocated dummies and blankets, then again at 5am - So I fed him, and stayed awake long enough to put him back in his own bed. He slept......UNTIL 7AM!!!!! WOW!!!!

So, I stick with 4hr a time, capped nap to 1h30, 3h30, capped 30m nap, 3h30 or 3h?? It was interested that yesterday when I put him down for his CN he was rubbing his eyes deluxe, and he was doing it again at 6.30pm last night (as he was finishing off his dinner) and the last two or three nights he has protested his shower which he normally loves.  Could that actually just be OT?

[3littlemen]

So we've had three successful nights of feeding around 5am and him sleeping until 7am. The day is 13hr long. First a time great on 4hr.

BUT...

do I let that first nap go and stretch the day to 14hr? or do I cap and try and squeeze a CN in....

HELP!!!!

[jessmum46]

Not sure I understand what you're asking   I would allow up to 2h for the long nap, then cap the short catnap at whatever length it needs to be to keep to a 13h day max.  Personally I'd think going to a 14h day would cause OT issues.  If what you're doing is working right now though, I'd probably stick with it. 

[3littlemen]

This is yesterday and today
nf5
wu 7
napped (in at 10.35) 10.40-12.10 woke crying
tried for a nap from 3pm-4pm crying lots of settling
napped (in at 4.20) 4.25-4.45 woken
bt 8

today
nf 5ish
wu 7
napped (in at 10.55) 11-12.45 I woke him
napped (in at 4) 4.05-4.40
bt  8.10pm?
I don't know whether to wake him before 2hr for the first nap so that I can fit everything in, or let him sleep as long as he likes and have to extend the day or do an EEBT I'm getting 11hr nights for the first time ever so I'm reluctant to change too much...For instance, if I let him go today
he would have slept 11-1pm, add 3h30 to that (as he protested yesterday with less activity time than that) that's 4.30pm-5pm capped (if he naps then), then 3h30 to bedtime gets me to 8.30pm (if he goes down straight away).
BUT
if I cap the first sleep to 1h30/45 like I did today then I end up cutting back his total day time sleep.

He's also been protesting his shower which he normally loves. I don't know if that is related to being OT at bt (he has a shower last thing, then bf and bt) or coincidental.

[jessmum46]

You could do 4h A time, up to 2h nap, 3h30 A time, 15-20 mins nap then BT maybe 2.5h later?  Shortening the catnap may mean you can keep the day to a decent length as most LOs won't be able to do a full A time again.  My LO would have done something like 4h A for first and second A times, but only 2-2.5h after the catnap.