shifting 4 yo body clock

[Truly Blessed]

Just working on Tracy's principle of 'loving the child you have' (I know this was referring to sprited, touchy, textbook etc rather than sleep but thought it may help) then if DS is a lark, can you focus more on what he does or should do at that early time in order to allow you the rest you need too rather than trying to make him something he perhaps isn't?  Just strikes me that if you have spent two years being frustrated about his WU time without success, then maybe his WU time isn't something you can 'fix' iykwim?

This makes a lot of sense to me Aishi, I think sometimes once you accept a situation it can ease your own stress. Have you tried giving him some TV time in bed    I know this goes against the 'expert' opinions, but on my thread quite a few of us have found it to work at this age and it seems it can be about switching up wind down, because they are so much older. With Sam he doesn't chill out downstairs at this age, and he used to  Generally he is on the floor standing on his head, or something similar  But once in bed watching 'Max and Ruby' or some other similar low key progamme he is really relaxed. I keep his dimmer light very low, and it works very well. He doesn't have a TV, so I set up my laptop and he watches 'Netflix' but of course you can play a dvd on there too. I don't do this every night, it is a 'treat' which is DS loves it is also something you can 'use' to gain power over him!!!! Ahargh!!! (evil cackle  ) lol. Maybe in the morning, you could do what others do and allow him to look at books or quiet play etc, but he isn't allowed to come out of his room or wake you until the sun is up.

I guess it is possible if  you 'give up the ghost' so to speak, that he picks up on how much less stress there is surrounding the situation and behaves better because of it  KWIM 

Forgive me if I am repeating others suggestions, I haven't caught up on the whole thread for a while 

x.

[creations]

surely wu should be later than this after four 9h nights???

You'd think so wouldn't you. That said, the first of those nights you put him down at 8.20pm and he fell asleep at 8.30pm, whilst I do agree night length is vital, I also see moving his body clock as different to night length and he *is* going to lose night sleep until the body clock shifts which is why with my DS I wanted it to come as quickly as possible or else it drags on for weeks/months with the OT building each day but the WU time not moving. This is how I felt when I moved DS's, he would lose sleep every night until he shifted that WU. The experimental aspect is not knowing just where you need to push BT to. For instance if you put him to bed at midnight he would probably sleep beyond 7am despite his strong body clock, obviously you wouldn't want to put him to bed that late but I really believe there *is* a point where he will shift. If that isn't 9pm maybe it's 9.30pm, or 10pm.
If it was mine (and it will be next month at the clock change) I would push hard and fast to get through it. Please don't feel obliged to follow my thoughts and suggestions though, I do know i am a lone voice on this and just sharing BTDT experience that worked with my DS, and my relief that I finally found something that works for him.  If it was my DS waking at 6.15 (and next month that will be 5.15) I would not hesitate to put him to bed stupid late - but that's mine not yours.
FWIW as the season changes I always see DS shifting his WU time. He's just started to do it, and he always goes the wrong way!! So he has done a few 6.30am WUs recently instead of 7am.  I'm currently deciding whether to do a hard push to fix it now or whether to wait until clocks change and do it all in one go. It's not 6.30 every day yet though so I'm still mulling it over.  For sure though when the clocks change I'll be moving BT 2hrs to gain 1hr at WU.

Whilst I agree that some people are larks and need to learn what to do during that time between waking and everyone else waking there are 2 things which wouldn't work for us in that sense. 1. My DS is quite good with his lights on a timer but he couldn't wait from 5.15/5.30 until 7am (he'd be so fed up, even if I put a lamp he could turn on during that time he'd end up hungry too early and I'd have to get up to get him milk/breakfast) and 2. to fit in 12hr nights (or maybe 11hr 30 if his sleep needs are reducing with age) I'd have to put him to bed at 5.30pm which means he'd never have time to socialise and bond with Daddy, Nana, Granny, eat dinner as a family and various other things. I'd have to give him dinner almost as soon as he got home from nursery and begin BT WD at 4.30pm. Whilst I put high priority on his sleep I also put high value on family bonds. It's just not doable and IMO for my DS not kind to let him shift back to such an early BT and WU either.

hugs Aishi. I know it isn't easy to have different ideas coming at you. You do what you feel is right, you'll be supported either way. x

[Aishi]

Thanks so much for your advice ladies too many options is better than no options

I think I need to do this and push on thru with later BT as creations suggested. I asked for a radical idea and i think I need to see it through properly before giving up and accepting my lot in life lol

Its not WD that's the problem with BT he will quite easily fall asleep at 7/7.30 but its the ew I can't do! He will wait for Mr sun now and has done in past too bar dev stuff causing problems. But I can't go back to sleep at ew even if he waits for mr sun cos once I'm up thats' it for the day

He's def tired and feeling the late short nights. He had a meltdown yesterday and I know today won't be better but I have to give it a go yk?
Obviously if this doesn't work I'll have no choice but its worth a try isn't it? Ever the optimist...

[barbaraz78]

I think you are doing the right thing in pushing bt. I would do the same. But also encouraging him to wait for the sun is the right thing to do. When F wakes up earlier (or in the weekend, when I want to stay in bed longer) I wake up almost immediately, but i am able to doze after, not properly sleep, but almost. It is better that being up doing wi/wo!
And this thread is giving me a good idea on how to go with the clock change: I think I will push bt 2h later as well for 2-3 days (starting from the Friday before). F usually shifts his body clock eventually going straight to the new time, but needs more or less a week for that. Hopefully, if I shift one hour more the process will be quicker.

[michaeljacknnugg]

If it's any consolation, my DS is an early bird too but reading has drastically helped with this. Now he can read until he's tired he is sleeping until 7 some mornings, and even when he came in with us at 6.20 on Sunday morning we were still in bed at 7.45! He read his book and we dozed.

[Truly Blessed]

Its not WD that's the problem with BT he will quite easily fall asleep at 7/7.30 but its the ew I can't do!

Aah I see, then I think you are doing the right thing Hun, good luck!

x.

[creations]

my DS is an early bird too but reading has drastically helped with this

Here too. DS reads for at least 20 mins every morning once his lights are on. Although I generally wake anyway, sometimes he comes out of his room to say good morning before he goes back to read (and now he is at nursery I have to get up right away 3 mornings) I doze whilst he reads, or at least have time to come around.

I was also wondering if you'd tried a sleep talk script to reinforce the gro clock?  Might be a bit much all at once and I'm no good for suggesting scripts as I never read the book but just an idea.
FX for tonight Aishi.

[*Liz*]

Just working on Tracy's principle of 'loving the child you have' (I know this was referring to sprited, touchy, textbook etc rather than sleep but thought it may help) then if DS is a lark, can you focus more on what he does or should do at that early time in order to allow you the rest you need too rather than trying to make him something he perhaps isn't?  Just strikes me that if you have spent two years being frustrated about his WU time without success, then maybe his WU time isn't something you can 'fix' iykwim? 

This is what I am thinking as well  .

That is the conclusion I reached with my DS, so no surprise I would say that really.

And there are other aspect of my kids that I would change if I could. One example would be DD's night terrors. I hate them, and they really get me frustrated and down as I get so tired with them  , but what can I do? They come and go and when they have a bad run I end up with a week of exhaustion. I do wish DS didn't wake so early as well. Since I shifted his bedtime to 8pm I see far less of him at 5am overall - and many more at 6am. I honestly don't know if I could get him to 7am  . Not worth trying over here due to out work patterns anyway.

I guess a few more days and then re-evaluate???

[Aishi]

Id be happy with 6 am wu Liz if BT was 7/7.30 or even 8 but his wu eventually creeps to 5.30 with those bts . He woke at 6 today after falling asleep on the sofa watching something on I pad last night. I was going to do 10pm BT  but found him fast asleep curled over iPad at 9 .

10 pm BT tonight for a few days and reassess if we're in same place by weekend

Good luck with time change Barbara - hope it goes more smoothly for you than it is doing for me!

I haven't tried sleep talk with ds but I guess I could look into it. I'll do it if this doesn't work. It will be even better if he has post 6 wu with 7.30 pm BT! Lol

[*Liz*]

But how often? My DS is still pulling the odd one, it is his nature  , and that is where the clock training comes in.

He sounds super tired  .

Where do you live? I live on a main road going out of a small town. The road outside starts to wake at 5.30am so there is always some background noise then. DS sleeps at the back of the house so he isn't woken as easily. At our old house my neighbour used to go to work at 5.45am (squeaky gate and car starting) All these things do impact some  .

[Aishi]

Weeks of 5.30 wus thats what caused me to start this thread 14 pages ago! There's no external reason. He has room in back of house too, white noise, total blackout ( I mean not even a chink of light gets in) and heating comes on in morning so room is not cold.

He is really tired. We both are. I don't know what else to do but plod along with this

[barbaraz78]

Could it be heating coming in the morning? Could he be too hot?
I wonder because DS is very sensitive to light and when on holiday we have places where light comes in in the morning we have days and days od 9-10 h nights, even some of 8.5 h, and he seems not able to catch up.

[creations]

What time does the heating come on? any chance the boiler kicking into life is waking him??

What was it Tracy said about keeping them awake - fan dance?

[Aishi]

Heating was on low all night for last few days so its not that waking him. I think it actually helped to keep him sleep past 5.

So dyt I should do 10pm BT

[Truly Blessed]

Just ((HUGS)) for you today Hun really I can appreciate how tired you must all be When my thread started Sam was EW, it has improved, but I know he is OT. This morning he didn't want to get out of bed and said he was "Too tired for school" I'm sure this would be a good scenario for you but for us, it means school is wearing him out, but his nights have dropped to 10.5 from 11.5/12 literally overnight. I know we have discussed these things being less about OT and UT, and more about development etc, but obviously OT still exists and I wonder if this is a case of him needing to carry on the same way until he literally crashes 

How old is he exactly Hun  (you need a ticker  )

My BF's twin girls went through exactly the same thing at the same age, so although I know your DS has never been a 'good' sleeper really, there is development at play at this age, coupled with a drastic drop in sleep needs. I hope that with the darker nights and darker mornings, things will improve  Sam definitely seems to be affected by Summer, and many other BW have told me the same, he doesn't sleep as well. If you liken it to us as adults, you do feel more restless at night when the sun is still out, but in Winter you want to be home by 4 o clock!!! 

Finger's crossed and more ((HUGS))

x.