Need Gradual Withdrawal Plan for 23m old

[violagal]

Dear All,
We are looking for some advice to help get our 23m ds1 to sleep independently.

He has never gone to sleep independently for probably a couple of reasons; firstly he had reflux as young baby and so generally fell asleep whilst being held upright after feeds for a long time. Secondly we lived in a one bed flat until 2 months ago so he was in our room and so always had us there when waking and when going to sleep we would sit next to his cot until he fell asleep. We moved because we now have a 7wk old ds2 so he had to move house and move into his own room 2.5 weeks before getting a baby brother!
The first week in his own room we kept the going to sleep routine the same ie sit with him but he did get more worried and asked for us to hold a hand or toe which we did...especially me as I was feeling guilty about the impending arrival. He would also wake several times in the night crying out for us so one of us would go in but literally as we walked in the room he would lie down and go back to sleep.
The first week or so after ds2 arrived it got slightly worse as whoever was putting ds1 to bed would fall asleep on the floor next to his cot whilst holding the hand or toe so made the poor mite less independent! We are now able to just sit next to his cot (despite him saying 'mama lay down') but he still desperately wants a hand or toe held until he falls asleep. We also don't talk to him or make eye contact so that we are not reaffirming our presence and he seems happy with this now and will generally just sing or chat to himself until he falls asleep. Although if you try to withdraw your hand too quickly the cycle starts again.
How can we wean him off this? I really don't feel I could go cold turkey by refusing the hand/toe or walking out of the room given all the changes he's just had so hoping for some ideas to gradually wean off the holding hand/toe so that we can get to the point where we can put him in his cot, say nite nite and then leave him.
Anyone else had this??
Thanks.....
Emma

[Haribo2012]

Hi and congrats on your new LO. I think for the time being you just need to keep consistant and stay with DS...it's a massive thing moving to a new room and then having a baby to take his mummy's time too so it's prob a combination of things.
Personally I'd spend lots of time playing I'm his room, putting him in bed and playing peek a boo or getting a fave teddy and play putting him to bed.
Does he have a lovey?
My DS is an independant sleeper but when he's having a developmental phase I have been known to sit in the doorway to reassure.
Walk In/Walk Out vs. The Gradual Withdrawal Method (HOW TO CHOOSE)

[violagal]

Thanks Haribo, I think I could cope with trying to vary my position in the room or trying wi/wo if it wasn't for the fact that I am currently physically tied to the cot with his hand is what I want to address. How can I do that? Should I whittle down the hand to a finger? Or only hold the hand for a limited time? That is what I'm really stuck with, how to be able to not hold his hand or toe for starters...

[Haribo2012]

I'd prob just sit sideways next to cot not hold hand but just keep saying it's ok mummy's here time for sleeps now. Repeat repeat etc so at least your close and he can touch you but your not being his lovey as such...he will cry and scream prob as it's a change but that's ok as your there talking quietly and calmly.
Will he cuddle a toy?x

[violagal]

Ok so do refuse the hand but sit next to him and calm him. He will indeed cuddle a toy in fact sometimes he wants 2 or 3 toys at once!
DH and I take turns at the moment putting each boy to bed so am wondering if just one of us should do this to wean him off the hand holding or should we continue to alternate so he doesn't think the other person will give in and hold hands?

[Haribo2012]

I'd let him have all the toys he wants and talk about which one would he would like to take to cuddle instead of mummy's hand, it's like removing a bottle or dummy or rocking to sleep...you've just become his prop so once he realises that he won't get a hand etc he will soon settle I'm sure. Make sure there are lots of cuddles and maybe stories (if u do stories) just do he's nice and reassured.
I don't really think it will matter if he used to both you and DH doing BT as long as you both opt for same method, do what you feel is right.
Keep strong and don't let it upset you, nice and calm and lots of deep breathing 
Let me know how it goes x

[Mattsmummy]

When we ST my DS he was about the same age. We used GW method and the first night, I sat on the floor right beside his bed and kept saying my phrase" it's bedtime M, lay down, Mummy is here".  I also patted the mattress.
He cried and cried and what did the trick for me what to lay down on the floor with my back to him right beside his crib. Literally, the minute I did this, he must have thought, alright, she's here for the long haul.  He laid down and went to sleep. 2+ hours the first night, second night, maybe 30 minutes, third night, maybe 5...
It works but you have to be so consistent and try hard to NOT engage them in conversation or react to thrown toys/loveys...just quietly replace and repeat you're phrase!

Good Luck!

[violagal]

Thank you Mattsmummy for your helpful worse also.
Well ladies....DS1 just managed to go to sleep without a hand or toe it took an hour instead of 5 minutes but I think that's not too bad considering. I asked him before bed which toy he wanted to cuddle and he chose one. Then we did our usual routine of milk, teeth, stories, cuddles, into cot. He asked for 'hand' straight away and I said 'no sleepy time' etc, 'cuddle teddy' (the toy he had chosen). He then got upset, cried a bit but only for a few minutes then started fidgeting and singing and chatting. Then this cycle repeated several times. I very nearly gave in when towards the end he cried 'mummy hand pleeaaaase' but I just reached through the bars, stroked his hair for a minute and then he settled and eventually fell asleep! It was interesting as he changed the toy 3 times - telling me he didn't want the one he had and handing it to me then asking for a different one so perhaps he understood that he needed to find something to else to replace the hand?
Also I think part of it was just me having the confidence to believe that he could do it you know? So DH has been debriefed and will do the same tomorrow....will report back then!

[Haribo2012]

We'll done for hanging in there that's fantastic to hear and an hours great for the first day of changing something 
I find the changing toys etc is a bit if an attention thing or delaying tactic but it's great progress hun x

[violagal]

Well tonight DH put him to bed and it took 15minutes!! Unbelievable! He did ask for 'hand' at the start but DH told him to cuddle his toy and that he was a big boy now and didn't need the hand and he then sang himself to sleep!
So, not that I want to get ahead of myself what should my plan be? Wait until he stops asking completely for the hand before starting to move away from the cot?
And once I do start moving from the cot what would be a sensible/gradual approach to moving out of the room would it be say a foot at a time? He's in a fairly small room so there's probably only 6feet from the foot of his cot to the door...

[Mattsmummy]

Great!
I moved every 3 days. Slowly working my body to the outside of his room. TBH, by that time, I think he wouldn't have noticed if I got up and left but I wanted to be consistent. A foot sounds good for the first move. Maybe try a bit more the second!
Way to go mamma and daddy!

[Haribo2012]

Agree ^^^ I'd prob do same first move then 2nd to the door. Well done all of you  x

[violagal]

Thanks both 
Will report back in a couple of days

[violagal]

Ok update:

Day 3 - I put him to bed still sat next to the cot. He asked for my hand once but showed no protest when I said no, in fact he looked like he expected it! Sang himself to sleep then in about 10 minutes.

Day 4 - DH put him to bed after I explained he should now sit about a foot away from cot. All went well apparently and he didn't even ask for the hand. He did however wake up crying about an hour after he went to sleep and DH went to check and he'd got his leg stuck in the bars so he freed his leg and gave him a quick forehead rub and then walked out and that was no problem so we were impressed with that.

Day 5 - I put him down and sat in same place as Day 4. He didn't ask for my hand and asked for a specific toy to cuddle. As this position is at the end of the cot I couldn't actually see his face/eyes so guessed he had fallen asleep and walked out but it was too early and he called 'Mamma' for me twice - no crying - so I went back in and said it's ok Mamma here and then sat in the same place for another 5 mins and then left.

So good progress - would never have believed he wouldn't ask for a hand or toe after only 4 nights. Was I right to go back in when he called for me?
We now have one more position in the room until we are at the door so what happens then - do we stand in the doorway with the door open? What happens if he calls for us? I can't seem to get my head round what happens when we are no longer in the room?

[Haribo2012]

Wow your doing so well it's great to hear it's working. Yes you can go back in and I think that's the right thing considering he's used to you being there..it's just reassured him that you'll come if he needs you. I'd sit it the doorway so you are half in half out if that makes sense? If he calls for you I'd just try saying mummy's here it's sleep time etc before rushing back in but if he starts to get upset pop in just reassure then back out. Once you get to leaving the room you can either sit outside door saying mummy's here etc or go to walk in walk out! x