6 month old waking same time at night- habit?

[Newbie mum]

Hello, my dd is 6 months and 2 weeks old. Always had a windy tummy which has meant she's never been the best sleeper but not the worst either. She's always wanted to sleep but woken because of tummy not for any other reason.

For the last week she has been waking at 0010 or 0015 for a feed then back to sleep until 0700ish or waking before that with wind but going back to sleep without coming out of the cot.

I'm starting to wonder if this midnight waking is becoming a habit as its the same time each night? and a lot earlier than it used to be. She is taking some solids too and the same amount of milk as always. What do you mums think? If it's habit, what can I do about it?

I was always too scared to try a dream feed and guess it's too late now?
Any thoughts appreciated 

[Newbie mum]

Last night she woke at 0230 so an hour later and the lasted until 0600 so maybe not habit?

[Kellyjs]

I'm thinking not then hun. I wouldn't do a DF now as you'll be looking to drop it any way in a month or two. Does she go back to sleep ok after the feed? Of so, I'd just feed whenever she wakes around that time.

Later on, when you're happy to drop that feed you can use the same principles of cutting out the DF by offering less and less each time, or diluting the formula with more water gradually.

Hth xx

[Newbie mum]

Thanks for the advice, yes she goes straight back to sleep. Will see what happens tonight. Unfortunately I made a big mistake today.. After a lovely calm day with excellent naps ai stupidly let her nap for an hour at 5.30 and she's now wide awake and won't settle 

[Kellyjs]

Oh dear, thinking that might be the start of the 3-2 anyway, that happens around this age. BT shenanigans especially after good naps and that long CN is too be expected I'm afraid. Live and learn eh?! 

[Newbie mum]

Sure did! She has also started waking earlier than normal 6ish rather than between 0700-0720 so I am going to start the 3-2 nap transition today... Fingers crossed! She's currently sleeping and was awake for about 4 hours as we was weighed today at the HV drop in. She did very well as she must have been tired..hope she naps well. I will have a look at the 3-2 nap resource on here, but am I correct in thinking the 1st morning nap will become the long one? Rather than the one after lunch? Am I still aiming for 3-3.5 hours of sleep in the day?

[Kellyjs]

It really does depend on your LO hun. The idea behind dropping the CN is that once the A times reach around 3hrs, there's just not enough hours in the day anymore. Initially you may find the NS increases slightly, then as she gets used to being on two naps and the A times increase slightly again, BT gets a little later.

Ideally you'd get two long naps in the day. Remember if any of the naps are shorter EBT is key to help them catch up. Here's the link for you. Let me know if you have a questions. Also there's a 3-2 support thread that's really helpful with others that are in the same boat All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months

[Newbie mum]

Hi *kellyj* my little one is now waking twice in the night for a bottle and is really hungry for it. It's the only thing she wants and when she's drunk it falls straight to sleep. She's not needed two feeds over night for months :-(
She is having solids in the day and the same amount of milk as she always does (4 hourly).. I guess the obvious thing is to give her more food in the day but I am a bit nervous about that as she has been waking with wind at night I think more so than normal because of the introduction of solids (although I think I have been giving her food too late and perhaps giving her too much food too fast).
Any suggestions?

[Kellyjs]

I would actually increase the amount in the bottles in the day by 1-2oz and see if she takes it rather than increasing her solids hun. Milk is far more important before they hit 1yo and actually has far more calories in it so is more likely to see her through the night than solids iykwim?

I would offer her her bottle then do solids an hour after that. We always did dinner by around 4-4.30pm latest so she'd take her nt bottle. Mind you, I don't think we even did dinner until around 8mo. Just did a tiny amount of breakfast and lunch by 7mo. Milk is their primary source of nutrition and as the saying goes 'solids before one is just for fun' x

[Newbie mum]

That's very interesting Kelly, I've often wondered if she needed a bit more milk when she has formula as she'll down the bottle so quickly and then get upset when it's all gone as if she wants more. I've never given more as I've always followed the instructions on the tin and amount they suggest for her age. I also read that you know when a baby is full after formula because they should leave a few ml in the bottle- not sure if that is correct?
I think I was racing to get her having 3 meals a day (as thought this was what I was supposed to do) and now that I have reduced this a lot she seems better from a wind point of view. She's ravenous in the morning and gets so excited when she sees the bowl I make her porridge in and then has some lunch. We've stopped giving her dinner for now (or just give some baby custard and fruit) which I wasn't sure if that was the right thing to do, so good to read that your lo didn't have 3 meals until later on.
We bought some Hipp night milk today as noticed it in the supermarket. Have you any experience of it? As I mentioned my lo gets a windy tummy over night and a friend mentioned that their baby was windy with aptimil (which my dd has along with breast milk)  and much better on Hipp milk so wondering if I should switch, but of course there is the risk that it makes things worse...

[Kellyjs]

There's plenty of time for her to have solids later on, and it's fun for us too so I can see why you've done it! Milk is so so much more important and once I was told that it had far more calories than solids I scaled ours back too.

Yes, I would definitely increase the amounts in the bottles if she seems like she wants more. Averages are there just as a guide, but many LO's drink more or less than that. It's a case of reading your LO and giving her what she wants until she can tell you herself! You'd want there to be at least around an oz left in the bottles so you know she's full, she'll stop when she's ready. Babies are very good at self-regulating so please don't worry about over feeding with milk.

It's up to you about changing the formula. I haven't any experience with Hipp, I used aptamil too. I'd actually wait a few days and see if the windy tummy settles now you're not giving so much dinner. It might be an idea to not give fruit for dinner as some lo's get a windy tummy with that. Perhaps leaving out dinner for for a few weeks? Worth a try? It takes a long time for their stomach to mature and to adjust to having solids.

My DD always liked breakfast too!

[Newbie mum]

Hi Kellyjs, that all makes perfect sense- thanks. She certainly guzzles down her bottles and some days seems to be taking an extra feed in the days so she is definitely a hungry girl! I did try one feed with an extra oz and she drank it all down! I'm going to keep doing it and just need to work out how much formula to add to the extra water. Fingers crossed I think her tummy is a bit better now that we are just giving breakfast and lunch (with an odd snack if we're eating and she wants to join us). I wonder if I could ask you another question..she wakes sometime between midnight and 2am for a feed and then will last until about 6.30 when her wind raises its ugly head which wakes her. She isn't ready to get up and wants another feed to settle her off and then will happily sleep for another hour of so. Do you have any suggestions on how I can push the first feed to a later time? As then hopefully the wind won't kick in until she would naturally wake up. When she was about 5.5 months (I think) her first night feed was pushing back to as late as 4am and then she slept all through the night for a few nights with no feed and then we moved her to a cot and it all went down hill! I'd love to push that first feed back...that's why I thought a dream feed might help but other mums suggest not to do that at this stage....

[Kellyjs]

Nah I wouldn't bother with a dream feed now either. I'm thinking if you add more to the bottles during the day and the night feed, she'll be less likely to wake for it iykwim? However, 6.30am is a time when she's in light sleep if she naturally wakes an hour or so later so it's a difficult one. Maybe try adding 2oz to all bottles including the nf and see if that works? I think it's a case of riding it out and it should settle down anyway within a month or so (hopefully a lot less!) xx

[Newbie mum]

Great, thanks I'll give it a go! Ps..your lo is gorgeous  my daughter shares the same beautiful blue eyes (although she has red hair...and at times a feisty personality to match!) x

[Kellyjs]

Thanks sweetie, it might be the blue eyes that makes them feisty!  x

[Newbie mum]

Hi *kellyjs* just wanted to say a big thank you for your great advice. Touch wood, things are going really well after following what you said. She's down to 2 naps a day (with the occasional 30min catch up nap if needed) and is sleeping for at least 2 hours in the afternoon if at home. Her nights are good too, waking for one feed at about 0300 and I am thinking that I might start to reduce the volume of that feed- do you think that's a good idea?
I'd like to preempt the next time she'll need to change her A time or routine and wonder if you could let me know when that might be..what signs should I look out for? Hope all going well with you :-)

[Kellyjs]

That's great news hun, well done you!!

I would only look at reducing the volume of that night feed if she starting to take less and less or become disinterested in her first bottle in the morning. Don't worry, she will tell you in her own little way.. That's when I knew up I had to drop the DF. Even then, I ignored it for a couple of weeks hoping it was just a blip! Then, I started reducing the amount in the bottle by 1-2 ozs every 2 nights until we were down to around 4oz. Then I gave up and went cold turkey!! I did have to make sure I increased the volume she was losing out in the other bottles during the day. I think she was nearly 8mo when we did it.

The signs to look out for when she's needing a jump in A times is the dreaded 45mins nap. And/or playing around in bed before she goes off to sleep. Oh and the yucky cot parties in the middle of the night if the A times have been left too short for too long. I would always wait a couple of days if any of these things happen to see if it repeats itself, then look at increasing the A times by 15mins and holding for 3 days to see if it rectifies itself.

Remember though, short naps can rear their ugly head during teething spells and if ill, that's why it's best to reassess the situation over a couple of days as a jump in A during these times can make them OT.

Here's a good link to have handy, but remember it's just a guide. My DD, for example has always wanted to do A times well over her age! Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!!

[Newbie mum]

Thanks for that. She's taking an oz less of her overnight bottle (which I never thought I'd see as she is a guzzler when it comes to milk!) and will play happily on waking and will want milk about 30-40mins after waking (or I offer then anyway as think she should have some).. Does that sound right? 

[Kellyjs]

That sounds good to me hun. Mine doesn't like milk straight away either which is great as I need a cup of coffee before I'm capable of assembling her straw cup  xx

[Newbie mum]

Hi *kellyjs* do you mind me asking you a follow up question on this thread? Or should I start a new post?
We have been reducing my lo's milk by an ounce every 3 days as you suggested and we were down to 150mls when she stopped wanting it over night :-) Last night was the third night of her not wanting a feed. However, she does wake at the same time she used to for the feed, approx 3am. On the first night of no feed, I had to pick her up, albeit only for a few minutes, dummy in and the straight back to sleep in her cot. Second night, again pick up but literally back to sleep as I picked her up so back in bed asleep within a few seconds. Last night she grumbled and I thought she might not wake but she did, I put the dummy in without picking her up, she went back to sleep only for a few minutes and needed a quick hold again. Each night the attention she needs gets less so hopefully this pattern will continue and she won't wake eventually. What I'd like to check is am I doing this correct as I don't want to add any accidental parenting etc. would you do this when she wakes? Thanks for the reducing regime advice, really hope it continues :-)

[Kellyjs]

I think you're doing just great if the attention she needs is getting less and less. It's obviously just a habitual wu that will just need time. If you can, it might be worth not picking her up and trying a version of ssh/pat or rub in her bed next to see if she settles that way. It's a sort of gradual withdrawal. Well done you in any case!! 

[Newbie mum]

Thanks a lot :-) Last night she didn't wake at that time at all  and hoping for the same tonight. Just shows that it probably was a habitual wake. Again no feed last night. She did grumble 2 or 3 times and because I was sleeping in the same room as her (normally sleep in a different room) I put the dummy back in when she grumbled and she went back to sleep (or maybe she was still asleep when I did it). Doing it this way meant that I had a good sleep too as I was worried she would go on to wake. This was probably not the right thing to do was it? I guess I should have left her to see if she would resettle by herself. The dummy is a question too... It has/is a great help especially when she had a windy tummy but now it looks like this has settled, so now I wonder if she still needs it. It's a difficult decision as she goes back to sleep immediately with it and settles off to sleep with it easily, but on the other hand did she grumble/wake because she missed it? What do you think? She only has the dummy for sleeping. My other thought is to teach her to put it back in, which she can do in the day light, but she sleeps in a 'sleepyhead' nest type bed rather than freely in the cot so not sure how she will be able to find the dummy in the dark of bedtime. Her sleepyhead is inside the cot so I did wonder if I put a roll of eg towel (wrapped so she can't open it) on either side of the sleepyhead so  it would make the height equal (rather than the sleepyhead edge, then lower down the cot mattress) and put some dummys on there? I've also bought one of those bunnies that hold dummies with Velcro paws but she throws the bunny down! Sorry, not sure if any of that makes sense? X

[Kellyjs]

That's excellent! Yay!

It's a difficult one about the dummy. My DD never liked it and found her thumb early on anyway. I'm not too sure what a sleepyhead is I'm afraid, but I do know many people scatter a few dummies around the cot so it's easier for their lo's to find in the middle of the night. That and lots of practising replugging, which is difficult if you only want her to have it for sleep time. Maybe just incorporate it into your A time for 10 mins a day then take it away and give it back at nap and BT?

[Newbie mum]

Hello, good news first..the night feed has stayed away and we have now dropped the mid morning bottle of milk too. Now for the bad news...her sleep has gone aray for the last few nights and I'm not sure why.
She's now 8 months old. Night before last was bad woke at 1am and then after every 1-2 hours. She seemed to wake suddenly with a cry rather than a grumble. I put the dummy back in, turned her onto her side and she went straight back to sleep. Last night similar but I don't think quite as bad.

Would she suddenly develop a prop attachment to the dummy after using it for so many months? Seems strange that this has happened since the feed has gone, could it be related?

I can feel a little sharp tooth on the lower gum, but touch wood she's so far not been bothered by teething and I put the teething liquid on last and the night before just in case.

Have you heard if other babies waking a lot after dropping the night feed? Or suddenly over night developing an attachment to a dummy?
She can putting the dummy in herself in the day time, but at night she opens her mouth wanting me to do it.
Her naps remain good and her EASY too.
Hhmmmm...not sure what to do..

Can I also ask a question off the point....do even the most perfect babies have a bad day? I think my dd is wonderful and very easy to look after in the day...easy to go down for naps, sleeps well. Lovely fun personality, lots of laughs...but yesterday she didn't have an afternoon nap (my fault because we were out) and she was quite grumpy for the rest for the afternoon...I guess all babies have off days?!)

[Newbie mum]

Also to add my lo is a child who likes to be left alone when it's time to sleep. She likes a cuddle as she's picked up from having her sleep suit put on to transferring to the bed, but when she's had enough of me holding her she lets me know! (Just a few minutes) And just wants to be put into her bed to go to sleep alone without me fussing. This makes me think that there must be a reason I haven't discovered for why she's waking as I think she does like her sleep...or perhaps I'm wrong and she is waking for me to come and put the dummy back in? But I always do minimal contact with her and don't speak. Literally walk in, dummy in, on her side and I leave.

[Kellyjs]

I've got one of those independent lo's too so don't worry! Apop has never ever worked in this house, even when she's been ill or super tired.. Of I try and hold her, rock her etc she just goes crazy and wonders what the hell is going on!!

That does sound like teething is at play there hun. Have you tried medicating other than the teething gel? Ibuprofen tends to work best. Out of interest though, that's a lot of milk to drop relatively quickly if she's dropped the mid morning bottle now too. How many oz/ml does she have a day now? I think they should  be having at least 600ml until they're 1yo as milk remains their primary source of nutrition until one. Mine started waking a bit earlier in the morning after dropping the DF but I think that was a routine issue rather than hunger.

Babies can definitely have off days especially when something is different about the day, the nap was missed etc and even teething! My DD was a grumpy little sourpuss during her molar teething. I wasn't expecting it as she wasn't as bad with the others. Well, The first two she was, but not any of the others!!

A dummy can be a prop, but it's up to you if you think she's ready to wean it. Tbh, we never used one so I'm a little unsure about that one. Might be worth having a look on the props board as I think there was a thread about this not so long ago? Sorry, I would look through for you, but I have to run out xx

[Newbie mum]

That's for that. Yes I wish she would sometimes falls asleep on me or let me rock her to sleep like I see other babies do  but she just wants to be put down and left to get to sleep.
I will give the ibuprofen a go, thanks for that.
Milk wise she has 210mls on waking,
Porridge with milk and fruit for breakfast
now a snack of rice cake with cream cheese mid morning,
solids lunch with a pudding (she eats cheese and dairy)
 210mls formula at 3pm. But now she has dropped the mid morning bottle she wants it at 2pm or a little after
Light tea (although she is wanting a bigger tea each day)
7ish 180mls formula as it is the night time formula that is supposed to help sustain lo over night.

Do you think that is ok? Funnily enough I posted the same question on the formula page to check as I too wondered if she has dropped a lot.
I am getting her weighed tomorrow so will be interesting to see how she is doing as the HV suggested I drop some of her milk (at least the night one) as since starting solids and not yet moving she has jumped a percentile line! So I knew she could do without the over night feed. Xx

[Kellyjs]

I see Laura has posted on your other thread so I won't repeat what she says! Xx

[Newbie mum]

Unfortunately, the night wasn't great again. I put the teething solution on and gave some ibuprofen before bed to see if that would help but she still woke several times. Twice she self settled herself back to sleep otherwise we went in and gave the dummy and she immediately settled to sleep. She naps so well, goes down to sleep so well so I just wish I knew why she doesn't sleep all through the night. I did for a split second wonder if I should go back to the night feed as she used to sleep until 3am, have her feed and then straight back to sleep until 7.20ish, but of course, this is not the right thing to do.
The HV today said that she is at the right age for a sleep regression...so I really hope this is just a phase...the lack of sleep is depressing.
I'm going to check tonight but I think she is often (/always) waking at 0050hrs. Do you think I should try wake to sleep? X

[Kellyjs]

Tbh I've found that w2s at night doesn't work so well here if there's a teething issue, wonder week or something developmental going on. You could try though and see. You know your routine is good, so unfortunately it'll be a case of riding this one out. It does normally settle within a couple of weeks or so. Sorry hun x

[Newbie mum]

Thanks Kelly. Bizarrely last night was quite good with her only waking twice and dummy both times settling her back quickly. Only thing different yesterday was that we were out for her second nap and something woke her up in town so she only slept for about 45mins (having slept for 1.30hr in the morning).  Maybe she needs a shorter afternoon nap? But tbh I think it's all just random and like you say it's just a time to ride out. She seems to have a patten of a bad night for one reason or other then the next not so bad, next after that less bad etc...so hopefully that is what is happening her. Thanks for all of your help :-)

[Kellyjs]

Fwiw my DD won't nap longer than 45mins in the car. We get no naps at all if we're out and about  . It's just as they come out of a sleep cycle and it's a different place, all of a sudden they're raring to go!!