6 month NW, day 6 of EASY, in need of help please

[grumpkin]

(Sorry about this long post, I'm trying to provide all the required info.)
Hi, I posted last week on the EASY board about getting a routine started. Now we're on day 6 of EASY and I'm feeling pretty awful, and don't see a heck of a lot of improvement. The issues are with both naps and night sleep but figured I'd try posting on this board. Our daughter is 6.5 months, a spirited baby I think.

Here is a typical day since starting EASY:
6:30 wake up and nurse, then cereal
  A time 2 hours
8:30 Nap - usually goes to sleep unaided. Sleeps 35-45 minutes. PU/PD x 20-30 minutes to resettle. Sleeps another 35-45 min.
10:30 Nurse, then solids - finger foods
  A time 2-2.25 hours
12:30 Nap - same as 8:30 nap. Though often takes PU/PD x 5-10 min to start nap as well. Rarely, either the a.m. or p.m. nap will last 1-1.5 hours straight. This has happened maybe 2-3 times since starting EASY, but there is no trend toward overall improvement.
2:30 Nurse, then solids - finger foods
  A time 2.25-2.5 hours
4:45 or 5:00 - CN - usually PU/PU x 10-20 minutes to settle, sleeps 30-40 min
  A time 45-60 min, bath
6:15 Bedtime routine, usually asleep on her own by 6:30 or 6:45
9:30 Usually wakes. Last night resettled on her own after a couple of nights of PU/PD (so one positive thing.)
10:30 Dreamfeed
Then the nights can be unpredictable.
1 or 2 - wakes, fusses. May resettle on her own.
2:30 or 3 - wakes and doesn't resettle. This is where the drama begins. Need PU/PD x 30-60 min to resettle. Then until about 5:30 wakes up every 15-30 minutes and needs resettling with PU/PD or soothing talk/hand on bum. Sometimes really gets going with the screaming, other times more fussy. Has a lovey. No pacifier, no swaddle, those were weaned at 4 months.
5:30 - goes back to sleep with above methods, sleeps until 6:30.

Background info - until starting BW she was nursing fairly predictably at 1 and 3:30, then often waking at 5 and we were doing controlled crying. These wakenings were very habitual since age 4 months, so figured result of accidental parenting rather than actual hunger. Now since starting EASY, I have a very hard time figuring out if she is hungry in the early morning and that's why she can't resettle longer than 20-30 min. It doesn't sound like a hunger cry to me, more frustrated, but what do I know.

Since starting 4 hour EASY she nurses around 10 min each side per feed, for total 20 min. We're doing mixed baby-led weaning, so mostly finger foods that she is exploring, and some cereal to get a bit of extra iron into her.

She has cow's milk and soy protein intolerances. Unfortunately this has been difficult to sort out even with me on a strict diet since 2 months. Still has some traces of blood in the stool, though NO obvious signs of uncomfortable gas since she was 2 months. Growth is on her curve. MD has been consulted about the ongoing colitis (bleeding) and we are seeing a specialist this week. I mention this as I do not know whether or not it affects our sleep problems. As I said she has no obvious discomfort and is growing well.

Going on a week since starting the routine, I honestly don't know how long my own sanity can take this. Posting this to see if there's any obvious tweaking that could set us on the right path.

[Kellyjs]

Hi hun, sorry you've not had a reply until now.

First off it sounds like the pu/pd is going well, so congratulations!

I'm thinking actually she may need a push in A times, that's probably why she's not transitioning to the next sleep cycle for naps. Average A times around now could be around 3hrs.

During the night does she wake up screaming? Or does she start after a while? I'm wondering if she's actually ready for the 3-2 transition and those NW's could be UT from the day?

The length of day looks fab. But as she's waking earlier and earlier I really think it's time for an increase in a times. I would look at extending 15mins to the first two A times, holding for 3 days then increasing again by 15mins until you hit 3hrs. The idea behind holding for 3 days is that it gives lo's the chance to get used to the new times without getting OT and also gives you a chance to see what's working. What do you think?

You will find the day gets slightly longer as you increase the A times and still have the CN in place. I would look at capping that CN to 20 mins as you add the A times to the first two. I would keep the same A to the CN as you have been doing. It may require a bit of apop to see you through until you've transitioned fully to two naps.

I'll be back in a mo to post the link that has more info x

All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months

[grumpkin]

Thank you so much kellyjs for taking the time to reply.

I have been off the forum as we backed off a bit - we were burning out so spent the last week not interfering too much with baby's sleep. That being said, we've stuck pretty well with the routine. The only change is that since she was consistently sleeping poorly after 3am, we reintroduced one night feeding around that time. I do however agree with you that maybe she does need that push in A time, as she is showing some of the signs.

Since starting to feed her at 3am again, the nights are somewhat better. She hardly ever needs resettling at 9pm anymore. Dreamfeeds at 10, then wakes at 1 but usually resettles on her own. Wakes between 2:30 and 3 and I feed her on one side only. Usually after that I hear her make sounds a few times but she usually resettles without us going into the room. However early waking - usually 5:45 or 6 (but her bedtime is early as well).

I'm going to try extending the A times as you suggest. Today I restarted PU/PD for the naps to try to extend them again as we go through this transition. I do find it hard to believe she can stay up longer when she shows signs of fatigue, but understand that's probably due to the vicious circle of her having short naps.

My plan is that once the days are going better, we can wean her off that 3am feeding. I'm pumping on my other side at 3 so that I can stockpile some milk, and my husband and I are going to start giving her that feeding by bottle (taking turns so I get some nights off!!), so we can gradually reduce the amount.

Does this all sound appropriate to you or any other suggestions? Best wishes.

[Martini~]

Hi Hon! One BF suggestion from my side. I understand your point about you trying to drop this NF at 3am but I am not quite sure if dropping it leaded by you or your DH will really help or rather bring more problems. She seems to be really hungry at 3am as she was not settling well without it, and is settling well if you feed her. That would mean she is really hungry.

If you would like to take some advice, what I would do:
1. Are you doing DF by bottle or breast? If by breast she may not take a full feed at 10pm as maybe she is too sleepy on not hungry yet. So you may think of some solutions to encourage her to take more. You could slightly wake her up and always offer both sides. You can offer expressed breast milk here in a bottle, maybe that would make her drink more (mine took barely nothing when I was BF, and up to 200ml by bottle ). If you offer a bottle of expressed milk or formula here, you may ask DH to do the DF and go to sleep with DS for some nights to catch up on lost sleep.
- if you don't want to offer a bottle here and any other solutions of encouraging your DD to take more on DF are not working, try to skip DF for a while and see what happen. She may wake a little earlier than normal (3am) but maybe if you offer there 2-sided BF she will go straight to sleep and sleep till 6-7am with only one NF; maybe that solution is not ideal but for some mothers DF is not working well so instead of doing small DF and small NF, is nice to have one longer and bigger NF but have the whole evening for yourself
- the moment when your DD is ready for dropping a NF I would rather asses by her taking less milk in the morning or if you want to lead it, do it rather closer to 9mo; look out also for her daily milk intake if it's not dropping because of solids) it's rather rare especially when you offer solids after milk but can happen
- you do not have to pump to give your DD less milk, you can also just shorten her time on boob by 1-2min each couple of days when there will be time to drop the NF.

I hope that my suggestion will help:). I am personally a big fan of dropping NF:))) and encouraging children to drop it by themselves but if it's you who take too much lead here, it may back fire at you with unsettled nights and more NW.

[Kellyjs]

ITA with Martii. She is far more experienced that I wrt BF but I would Keep the nf if it settles her. You will know when she's ready to drop it when she takes less of her morning milk. I knew when to drop the dreamfeed here because she was taking barely 2oz first thing! And as Martii said, that was closer to 9mo (I think it was around 8mo).

In the meantime good luck with extending the A times during the day, it will take a while, but patience is key! Keep me posted ok? X

[grumpkin]

Thank you Martii and Kelly. Martii I agree with you now that continuing the night feed is the best decision - we wanted to see if she really needed it, turns out she did, and she'll have it as long as she needs. I don't think dropping the DF is possible however - she will wake on her own around that time to feed in any case (between 10 and 11). As I mentioned in my first post, she does have milk intolerance and has ongoing GI issues - blood in stool and high output of poop - so maybe this is a baby that needs to eat more often than average to keep up. On that note last night she did a HUGE poo at 2 am after NF - through onesie, sleeper and sheet. Fun times! But on a happy note, she is sleeping better between the night feedings and through the early morning. Probably a result of better days as well.

An update - I have been pushing her bedtime a little later - toward 7, so that hopefully we can get up a little later too. Works on some days. This morning she got up at 7am, but yesterday at 6. Anyway both are better than 5!!!

Another update - Kelly I took your advice and have been extending the A time, we're at 2.75 hours. It is going really well!! She is currently going on 1.5 hours of nap this morning, did the same thing yesterday morning and the day before. So not every nap but still A LOT better than before. However she is needing a forced catnap to make it to bedtime - won't settle in her crib so I've been rocking her in the chair and keeping her there for 15-20 min then waking her up. Not ideal but hoping it's temporary as she naps better and longer. Also it's lovely to have her sleep in my arms again so I'll treasure it while it lasts!

So overall, big improvements since I first posted in desperation 2 weeks ago. Thanks so much for your help.

[Martini~]

Hi Hon! It seems that you are doing great:)!
Regarding DF she may wake between 10-11pm for couple of days, but if you stop to wake her/feed her here if she is not needing, she may change the pattern after couple of days. Maybe worth checking!

Good luck and keep us posted!

[Kellyjs]

That's excellent news hun, some apoping a CN is perfectly ok during the transition until you can get to 3hrs A time, and as you said to enjoy the cuddles! It may need cutting down as you increase the A times or BT moved earlier but if it's not broke for now, don't fix it!! I'm so happy you're feeling more positive.

[grumpkin]

Just an update! Can't believe how much things have changed. Here is our current day:
6:30 wake up and breastfeed then solids
9:30 nap x 1.5 hrs  (sometimes sleeps through, sometimes needs resettling or pu/pd)
10:30 or 11 breastfeed then solids
2:00 nap x 1.5 hrs (same as above)
3:30 breastfeed then solids
6:00 bath
6:30 breastfeed and bedtime
9:30 wakes up and often needs resettling
10:15 dreamfeed or wakes up to feed
2 or 3 wakes to feed

Very often she is falling asleep after leaving her awake in her crib. During the 3:2 transition we've had to do more pu/pd again and there have been more tears, but we may be coming through at this point. During the night, she sometimes wakes up and squeaks a few times but generally falls back asleep on her own. Last night she did this at around midnight, then not a peep until 3, fed, then not a peep until 6:10! Then cooed in her crib for 15 minutes! What a change. I know not every night will be this good but it sure is refreshing.

More challenging are the days when we have an activity that interferes with a usual naptime, but we make do.

Thanks again for your suggestions, they have been very helpful.

[Kellyjs]

So glad things are going well. Great news