Tried EASY for more than a month still complete mess!

[bbjmom]

Hi All,

I've tried implementing EASY since LO was 2 months old.  Don't know what I'm doing wrong his night wakings only get worse. 

At 2 months, he gave me a long stretch from 8p to 2a.  After that it was 2-3 hours until 7-8a.  Quite normal for a 2 months.  I then introduced DF  at 11pm, he started to wake up a lot more before 2a, randomly at 10, 10:30,11, 12:30, 1.  I tried changing DF time but no luck.  FYI, I do pure breastfeed.

Now, at 3.5 months, he goes to bed between 730 to 8pm.  He would then wake up every 2 hrs.  Last night it was 10:30, 12:30, 2:30, 4:30, 6:30, and eventually up smiling to me at 7:15.  Sometimes I was able to shh-pat him back to sleep, other times he nursed for a few minutes.  I'm pretty sure hunger was not the issue.

I believe not having a consistent schedule during the day is the problem.  However, I'm having a hard time putting him into one because of the following issues:

1) He wakes up too full to eat.  So at 7a he doesn't even want to nurse at all.  Not even at 8a.  Then by the time he needs to nap (at 9a) he is hungry.  I still feed him so he can nap longer.  He still goes to bed awake.  If I don't feed him he will wake up early from his nap.  Any suggestion what I should do here?

2) He still tends to nurse close to nap/bed time.  Throughout the day he usually only nurses one side when he wakes up, he would then wants more after 1.5 hours - when he is sleepy.  He nurses much better when he is sleepy.  I don't know how to break this habit!

3) He can't/doesn't like to be swaddled.  Although he is only 3.5 months old he is already 20 lbs!  Its very hard to keep him swaddled especially when he has a fussy night.  There were nights when I was able to keep him in his swaddle using double blankets but he still up the same amount.  I've tried swaddling both arms one arm, and no arm.  Nothing makes a different.   I should point out he is sleeping in a bassinet so when he has his one or two arms out he can hit the sides.  Maybe that is the problem?

I really believe in EASY as it works for two of my friends but I'm at a complete lost!  What did I do wrong?!  Is it just because baby is sleeping in a bassinet in our room?  We have no option due to the size of our house.  We could try a bigger bed but my husband is not convinced the bed is the issue. 

With an older toddler I'm dying here.  Appreciate any thoughts!

[Buttonbobs]

Hi there and welcome to BW. Sleep and feedif at this age are quite tricky things and lots can change in terms of alertness and need to be awake for longer at this time too. Would you be able to post a couple of days in EAS format so we can look to see if there are any routine tweaks to make which might help?

Although I can't really say without looking at your EAS I do think that the feedig so regularly might be becoming an issue. As a first step I would DH try to make sure there is always some activity between E and S, and then lay him down awake and use shh/pat to settle if he needs it. As my DD got bigger I wasn't able to swaddle using traditional blanket swaddles but I found something like a swaddle pod or woombie was brilliant and helped my DD settle long past blankets working.

I'm sorry this isn't a full answer but if you can give me an idea of your EAS I should be able to help more.

[bbjmom]

Thank you so much for your reply.   I will log a few days and post again.

One qus about swaddling,  how do we figure out if its helping or disturbing? My baby knows how to suck his thumbs and did use that to fall asleep couple times.  Sometimes he can't settle without swaddle but sometimes he would fight if swaddled.  I also saw how he was able to go back to sleep after he successfully took his arms out of the swaddle.  So confused.  Can't tell whether he likes it or not!

[Buttonbobs]

I shall look forward to seeing you new EAS when you post.

With the swaddling it is hard to say really, if you want to have a go at trying without, I would say he's ready to go without if it makes no difference to his sleep to go without. You might have a couple of days of slightly harder sleep first and then if he finds his thumb and self soothes with that then you're on your way. If he is constantly jolting himself awake then maybe go back to the swaddle.

I didn't wean the swaddle with my DD until she was nearly 10 months old. We'd tried it several times before and she just wasn't ready. As she got older we used a woombie/swaddle pod rather than a traditional swaddle wrap.

[bbjmom]

Thank you, Buttonbobs.

Continue to try EASY and still no improvement.  Baby seems more stressed in general.  I believe its because of the change of habbits. Is this expected?

Here is roughly how our day goes:

E 7a (on many days baby is too full to eat when he wakes up)
A
S 9a (usually up around 10lish but can shh-pat back to sleep)

E 11
A
S 12:45

E 2:00
A
S 4:00 (very hard to fall asleep sometimes drag till 5lish or completely skipped) - sleep 45mins max

E 6:00
BATH
E 7:20
Sleep by 7:30, latest 8

E 11p (baby usually wakes up)

After 11p baby is up every 2 hrs.  Can shh-pat back to sleep except at 2a and 5a)

My LO is between an Angel and Textbook baby.  He seldom cries and can go to bed by himself at least half of the time.  However,  he seems to be a lot more cranky after I try EASY and had a hard time going down.  I really want to know if this is expected and what I'm doing wrong! 

[bbjmom]

Baby was up every 1.5 hrs since going down at 8p, and every two hours after midnight!  He cried hard and half the times won't settle without nursing. Maybe its a growth spurt but sometimes I could just pat him back to sleep.  Confused here appreciate any thoughts!

[Buttonbobs]

So sorry you're having a hard time at the moment. I think that there are tweaks you could make to get your routine more settled, but I do feel that waking at night is an indicator that something isn't on track. So you think there's anything going on in terms of discomfort (teething or reflux)? Has he often woken at night or is this a recent development?

In terms of the EAS, that first nap looks quite good. When he wakes after an hour, does he cry or is he happy waking? I think probably you're pretty much spot on with that first A time of two hours.

The second nap is a little short - perhaps because of a shorter second A time. Could you try 2 hours after that first nap? This might get you a longer nap. If not, you definitely want to try less than two hours A after that shorter nap (anything less than 1.5 hours is thought to not be properly restorative). You say above that by 4 he struggled to settle and then you had a short nap after that.

You do want a shorter nap in the afternoon but it does seem like he might have been OT going down for that one. There is quite a small difference between an OT and a UT nap (30 mins and 45 mins respectively) so keeping a clear record will be quite helpful for you.

I do think there might be the beginnings of a feed to sleep association too. Do you normally put him into his cot for naps and BT awake? Could you change the wind down routine a bit to include a little more A time between each feed and sleep to begin with? I will see if I can get someone with more BF experience then me to come and take a look too.

What do you think?

[bbjmom]

He has been waking up at nights after 8 weeks.  I suspect that's when he becomes more alert.

I will try a longer A time before the 2nd nap!

He was up every 2 hrs again last night but after the 2-3a feed, I caught him everytime he stirred.  I was able to just pat slightly or put my hand on his chest to keep him asleep and he didn't wake up to eat until 7:15a.  This experiment tells me its not reflux - he didn't need to be in an upright position.  I think its a sleep association issue.  Would you agree?

So now I don't know what to do.  Even if I put him on EASY he will still need help going back to sleep.  I'm afraid my shh-pat is becoming a prop.

Perhaps I need a better wind down routine.  What do you all do?  I simply put him in my bed, massage a bit, and put on his sleeping sack + swaddle.  Thought that's enough but he usually protests.  So I usually need to shh-pat him to sleep. 

Thanks for all your help!

Thanks again for all the help!

[Buttonbobs]

Ok, I agree it seems like a sleep association thing.

Don't worry about shh/pat becoming a prop. Unlike props the pat is something that can slowly be reduced over time and you can start stopping the pat when he gets drowsy rather than continuing into sleep and beyond and the shh can be replaced by white noise if needed.  He is still so small, it is ok that he needs a bit of help at this point, and if you can do this now then it will set him up well for sleep later on into childhood.

It is also true that when his EASY is going a little better he will transition better from sleep cycles.

As for a wind down routine. I think at this age I did bath and sometimes massage after bath, then we did a bottle feed downstairs (although I know many who do feeds upstairs at this part of the night). Then we did a little story, sometimes read from a book, and sometimes just made up, but using a very calm gentle voice. Then we changed nappy if needed, swaddled and put her in her crib/cot and let her drift off. When we first started I did need to shh/pat, but after a while I was able to reduce the pat and just rest my hand on my DD as you have described and shh gently.

We didn't have I do shh/pat every night and once she settled better we didn't need to do it unless she'd got really OT.

Is your DS sleeping in your bed the whole night or are you settling him there and later moving him?

[bbjmom]

Hi Naomi (just realized that's your real name ),

First of all, thank you so much for your constant support!  It really helps!!

My LO always sleep in a bassinet. 

I tried extending his 2nd A today but no luck.  He was tired and cranky after 1 hr and 10 mins, probably because he didn't sleep well from the 1st nap.  Here is our day so far:

E 7:15
A
S 9:05 (up @ 9:35, shh-pat back to sleep at 10)

E 10:50
A
S 12:00 (woke up by my older son at 12:45.  shh-pat with lots of crying back to sleep at 1:30 :< )

Crossing my fingers he will have a good nap from now on..

Question: what do you do if you get a short/bad nap?  do you still keep the schedule or you would put baby down earlier for the 2nd nap? 

Thanks!

[Buttonbobs]

If you get a short nap you do put down a little earlier for the next nap, so possibly 1hr 30 instead of 1hr 50 - remember this is a flexible routine, not a schedule, so you need to follow your LOs tired signs and keep an eye out for the sleep window.

As you have only just extended that first A time again I am not surprised you had an OT 30 mins nap, keep going with the same time tomorrow and see if he settles into the new length of A time.

And yes, my name is Naomi you are so welcome, I received much support here when I first arrived and still love this kind, supportive place. I hope you find it as much help as I have xx

[bbjmom]

I kept trying with different adjustments but baby still up every two hours

One thing I notice is that he doesn't nurse well in the morning.   He is often not hungry at 7a, not until close to 10a - which is in the middle of his first nap.  I believe thats why he always only nap for 45mins the first N.

To fix this, I tried top up before the 1st nap but he usually still won't take much and wakes up in an hr.

I start to stop nursing him at night after 2am now.  Had to shh-pat him for 10 to 45mins each time he woke up.  Very painful.

I really don't understand why he doesn't even give me one long stretch.  Last night I fed him at 7p, 9p, DF 11p and he still up at 1:30a.  I nursed at 1:30a and he up again at 3:30. 

I'm going to keep trying not to nurse him at night.   Appreciate any other suggestions.

[Buttonbobs]

You need to try and stick with the same thing for a few days at a time. Too much hanging can be confusing. Can you post your last couple of days EASY?

I am not a Bf expert but I wouldn't expect your LO to be able to go the whole night without a feed at this age. He is big for his age, which makes it likely he is taking more at each feed and possibly able to go longer between feeds than a small baby. I strongly recommend that you try withholding feeding if it has been a short time since the previous feed - I.e. A shorter time than between feeds in the daytime. But otherwise, try using shh-pat and if you get a good resettle for longer than an hour or so it probably wasn't hunger. If he wakes shortly after settling again, it probably was hunger and you should feed.

While I do think there is a bit of a feed to sleep association here, I do think sorting the day routine would help massively. If you can come back to me with your EASY again we can take a look at it. Feel free to post daily if t helps you to keep track

[lauradj]

I agree with Naomi, given your LO's weight, he can probably handle the higher end of the A times for his age group.  I wouldn't withhold feeds at night necessarily, two night wakings is not uncommon for his age.  If you can get him to go 3.5hrs between feeds during the day it might help the nights.  He could be developing a snacking habit during the day, and thus not getting the good solid feeds he would be taking if he were genuinely hungry. 
Just in case you don't have this!

Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!!

[bbjmom]

Thank you all!  Here is my schedule today:

E 7:55a - only nursed a little, previous E at 5:45a
A
E 9:15a - nursed more than the 7:55a feed
A (briefly - diaper change, etc.)
S 9:40a - felt asleep by himself, woke up briefly at 10:15 and went back to sleep by himself

(Summary: 1:45 A + 1:20 S)

E 11:00a
A
S 12:40p - tried keeping him up longer than this but he was very fussy and passed out at 12:40p

(Summary: 1:40 A + 1:35 S)

E 2:15p
A
S 3:45p

(Summary: 1:30 A + 1:30 S)

E 5:15p
A (grocery shopping in baby carrier)
E 7:15p - didn't eat much
A (Bath)
E 7:45p - feed again to ensure he is full
S 8:00p

Up at 9:20p, nursed for a few mins and went back to sleep.  He used to sleep from 8 to 2am with 11pm DF but lately he's been up a lot at 9lish.  I tried not feeding him but he was very fussy.

[Buttonbobs]

What an improvement! Well done you.

That evening is very long, is he sleeping at all between  5.15 and 8pm? I would imagine that early NW is from OT. The rest of the day he's managing a 1hr40/45 min A time. Could
You do BT at 7ish rather than 8? Or, put in a CN at about 6.30ish - maybe just 15/30 mins to tide him over from the nap through to BT?

[bbjmom]

Baby was up a at 2, shh-pat back to sleep, up again at 3.  Nursed, and AWAKE at 5.  Nursed + pat + some crying finally back to sleep.  Now I'm sure he won't be hungry when he wakes up.  I don't know how to start our day!

[bbjmom]

My ideal bed time is 8 because I have a toddler.   I tried putting him down for CN between 5:15 to 8 he protested.   I will try earlier BT tonight.

He is u at 7:45 and only nursed for 4 mins.  Should I feed him again before 1st nap?

[Buttonbobs]

You can do a top up before the first nap, and then no matter what he takes then offer a feed straight after. You might want to offer a shorter feed before the nap if you can get away with it so hunger is there for the next feed. Remember to do something like change nappy as activity after the top up feed.

[bbjmom]

Thanks!  I did as suggested but runs into a prob: baby is hungry before 2nd nap since he didn't eat much when he was up from 1st nap.  I ended up feeding him before nap again.  If I feed him immediately after 2nd nap as suggested, he will be eating/snacking every 2 hrs.  How do o go about this?

[*Ali*]

Personally if I fed at 5am I would probably skip the WU BF at 7.45 if he wasn't asking for it and I'd offer a feed later about 8.45am instead. That way he should be hungry enough to take a full feed and not need a top up before the nap. It doesn't matter if you do AEAS rather than EAS for each A time. You can then play it by ear for the next feed and have a little activity before the feed after the second nap and so on.

If he is asking for a feed at morning WU then I would probably try the top up much sooner like 30-45 mins later so that he takes less at the top up and has time to get hungry again for the feed after the nap.

Hope that makes sense. Sometimes you just have to be a bit creative.

[bbjmom]

I'm feeling completely discouraged today.  Its been worse and worse, and baby lost almost a pound from last month.  It took me some effort to start a 4 hours schedule but doctor said 4 hours is too long for a 4 months old.  He said that may be the reason for him to loose weight.  I'm so confused.

With an active toddler I also fail to lock myself and baby at home for 2 weeks to implement EASY.  That may be the reason why I fail. I haven't been very consistent. 

However,  I did have a very good schedule yesterday. Below is what I had:


Up between 7:10
E 7:30
A
S 9:15 (slept for 2 hours)
E 11:30
A
S 1:30 (slept for 2 hours)
E 3:30
A
S 5:30 (slept for almost an hour)
E 6:30
A
S 7:30

While I thought I had a perfect day, baby woke up every 1.5 hours between 7:30p and 2:30p.  I fed him around 10lish pm.  He was up again in 2 hours and every 2 hours after that. 

In summary, I tried 3 hrs, 3.5 hrs, 4 hrs.  Nothing seems to help. 

One thing I notice is that baby is very tired at the end of a 2 hrs A.  So maybe he is UT.  However, having a 2 hrs A helps baby sleeps longer at nap.  < 2 hrs he will be up at 45-60 mins. 

I also find that baby is always fuzzy after he wakes up from his catnap around 6p.  I can't tell whether he is tired or bored.

So lost here..appreciate any thoughts

[*Ali*]

Sorry to hear things aren't going well.
Many EBF babies aren't ready for a 4hr feeding routine yet and do better on more frequent feeds. EASY is a flexible routine rather than a schedule so it's better to go by your baby's cues rather than strictly by the clock. It doesn't matter if all the intervals or A times are the same or vary. If he is hungry and cuing for a feed then definitely go ahead and feed him. Or does he seem happy to go 4hrs and isn't really hungry before that? His weight gain is more important than the EASY right now.
I only suggested delaying feeds in my pp if he wasn't hungry and asking to be fed. It isn't the aim to stretch baby before he is ready.
If you follow his cues how often does he look for a feed? Are they full feeds do you think?
Are you feeding him at all the NWs every 2hrs?

I wonder if perhaps he got too much sleep on that good day you posted. I'd probably have gone for a slightly shorter A time before the CN so he was happier with a 30-45 min nap and then got a slightly longer A time before bed.

[bbjmom]

Thanks for the suggestions!

I do feed every 2 hrs at night.   Baby cries hard and won't settle with pu/pd or shh-pat.

Tracy actually says in her book not to feed at night - she said "do pu/pd" all night if needed. I haven't tried that as it will give me so much crying that I feel like its worse than CIO.  I do want to know if I really need to stop feeding at night for this to work.

Also, its really impossible for me to stay home with baby for two weeks.  Did anyone of you successfully implemented EASY without strict consistency?

[*Ali*]

Tracy always said to feed a hungry baby. Where did she say never feed a 4mo at night?  I need to check that. Regardless, BFing research has moved on since the books were written and since she is no longer with us she hasn't had the opportunity to update.

A couple of NFs at this age are completely normal.  I would try to get more calories in LO in the day rather than actively weaning NFs, especially if weight gain is an issue. Did you try the top up feeds half an hour after the wake up feed that I suggested above?

And no most of us dont stay home for 2wks. I used to try to get 1 good nap a day in the cot with my second when I had a 2yo to entertain.

[bbjmom]

No time to look up exactly where in the book but I recall its "The Plan" for implementing EASY for 4 months old.  Tracy said use PU/PD when baby wakes up and she said "do it all night if needed".   I guess she meant "assumes baby is not hungry". 

Its a big relief to know I could make this work without locking myself at home for two weeks.  I will give a fresh start tomorrow and keep trying.  Thanks!

[Buttonbobs]

Good luck x