I can't seem to get this right and am confused!

[katie80]

Could be... both naps a bust today: 30min then 1hr and couldn't do EBT as C had dance class. This is not so fun, but I'm always hopeful we'll get there. Thanks!

[Ima shel Alon]

Of course you'll get there!
I agree with Katherine, I still think he is UT and can do a bit more A time. I remember that I had to hold Alon for the last 30min of his A time because he was so whiny, but if I would put him for his nap when I *thought* he was ready I would always get an UT nap. We had to go more with the clock than with cues.

[katie80]

I remember that I had to hold Alon for the last 30min of his A time because he was so whiny, but if I would put him for his nap when I *thought* he was ready I would always get an UT nap. We had to go more with the clock than with cues.

Thanks, this is just what I needed to hear today. He was so fussy and clingy this morning, I thought I just couldn't hold him off any longer, so went to put him down, thinking I'd get somewhere around 3h10 A. He fell asleep in about 2min at ~3h A and did a 1hr nap (definitely UT as he woke and stood up and chatted to himself and the wall for a good 10min before I got him). Part of it is my issue as I don't do great with the whining, esp when G is asking for my attention as well, so then I just put him down. But, I cannot gauge correct A time after a 1hr nap and then the rest of the day is a bust, so it's really not worth it!! I think the second tooth is just about to cut... I can see it under the gum... so hopefully that will help with the whining, and I'll also have to try to hold him off (guess I'll use the carrier to help). This weekend won't be much to show for as we're going to the pumpkin patch Sat afternoon and are always off on Sun due to church, but at least I'll have a plan come Monday.

[katie80]

Well, I've had two more days to work on the morning A and nothing seems consistent. I'm so frustrated. Yesterday, I pushed through the whininess, went to put him down for 3h15-20A and he screamed hard... I ended up holding him til he calmed, did a bit of PD and he fell asleep around 3h25-30min. He slept 1h10... there's a chance he woke because Claire was up by his room, I don't know, but it didn't feel UT like Fri. Today, we didn't go to church as I forgot DH was going OOT and I couldn't face getting 3 kids there after being up every 2-3hr with C. So, I went for same A time (3h15-20) and he seemed to be falling asleep on me. Put him in the crib and he popped up and I did PD til he fell asleep at 3h40 A and slept 22min... I couldn't resettle as he was just screaming and I didn't last more than 5min.

Can you please give me some insight here? His second tooth is cutting, is that why he's so inconsistent?! Or, is it because he's not a full IS (in that he's usually pretty drowsy when I put him down), so sometimes pops up and starts standing? I'm just about at the point of giving up, but then I don't know what to do. I'm so, so tired; not having any fun with the big kids; our house is such a mess; and I'm resenting the fact that we've been doing this for 3+ weeks and have basically nothing to show for it.

I'm sorry to be so needy, I just feel helpless to move forward... want to sit on my couch and cry and then am upset I'm letting sleep run our lives.

[jessmum46]

Hugs Katie, we've just been through tooth 2 and it hasn't been pretty.  No pattern at all to nap lengths, same A one day is screaming OT, next day passing out in my arams, following day UT

This could all be an IS issue (can you ever put him down fully awake?  I think that needs to happen if not....drowsy is probably too much at this age...) or it could be he needs more A time consistently.  3h30 wouldn't be at all unheard of at this age.  Though I have to say in your situation I would be more than tempted to shoot for set naps, what do you think?  At least then you'd know when naps were, and you could hand the 'how long' over to him?  I imagine it might make it easier with C&G too? 

Not very typical BW routine, but would you consider possibly trying a capped very short nap in the morning then aiming for a lunchtime/early afternoon longer nap?  Or would long morning nap work better for you?  He's of an age where I think two long naps may already be a bit unlikely?  What do you think?

[katie80]

This could all be an IS issue (can you ever put him down fully awake?  I think that needs to happen if not....drowsy is probably too much at this age...)

No, I never really put him down fully awake... well, I tried for a good two weeks and did a ton of PD. Now that I've pushed the A out, he either falls right to sleep when I sit down to wind down or he screams and then sort of passes out (it can be a quick transition from really mad to sleeping and I rarely get up to put him down before he settles as once he starts screaming it seems hard to get him to stop in the crib ). I took the quiz last week and although it was quite varied, touchy got the most (but, that could be skewed as I took it while he was actively teething... he does have several touchy traits though, even when 'well').

Set naps... hmm, I'm not opposed to them in theory and would actually like the predictability, but I'm scared to try them. His nights are pretty rough right now and seem a bit worse when OT, so the thought of pushing through that to 'set' the naps is daunting for me. But, I guess it can't get much worse than it already is?! I'm just not sure how long I can continue coping with not much sleep at night, so am hesitant to rock the boat when I feel like we're close to routine, but just can't quite get there. It's probably madness to keep trying, though. . I don't know... I think I'm at my breaking point and am feeling a bit desperate... have cried about this a few times today (didn't help that I was upstairs doing bath/bedtime with the big two from 6:30-8:30, only to have baby C wake up at 8:45 for an hr. )

What times would I do the set naps? What if I can't get him down?

[Ima shel Alon]

Lots of (((hugs))), Katie. It can be real real hard, I know.

I think that what is important to remember is that it's very very difficult to ST when baby is teething. It's almost impossible IMO.
Once I managed to ST and *then* teething came then it was ok. In our case we had to keep the routine the same even when teething or we'd have to start ST all over again.
Perhaps Katherine has a point there with the set naps. Yk, there comes a time when we have to think of our sanity as well and A times and sleepy cues are not always the answer. Unfortunately I don't have experience with it so I don't have much advice to give in that regard.
What I would also add, because you mentioned that he is touchy and that he still goes down drowsy, that for us (Alon was touchy as well) there couldn't be any WD. I know it sounds crazy, but the WD was so short, always putting him in his cot and then leaving his room. If he would cry I would come back and do PD, but I could stay for a second after putting him in his cot, he found any kind of WD too stimulating. It's just a thought.

[jessmum46]

Hugs honey, I know and understand your frustration

Noa has a point about the teething.  Though I do accept it is nigh-on impossible to find a time when teething/illness/developmental milestones aren't in the mix somewhere.  Sometimes you just have to get on with it I guess, but it has to be your call.

I also like Noa's point about winddown.  I think if he is in danger of passing out on you when you go to sit down, then don't sit down.  Put him into sleep sack (if that's what you use) then straight down wide awake.  I know it's hard if he's really tough to calm in the crib, but I think probably until you do, he's never going to really be an IS if you see what I mean?  . Hugs for the tough nights, they aren't great here either and I totally get not wanting to make them worse, but if it's an independent sleep issue, then they may not get worse if you maintain status quo but they aren't going to get better either.

If you were going to do set naps I'd probably do (based on a 7am WU) something like 10.15am (aiming 1.5h) and 3pm (aiming 1.5h), with BT 7.30/8pm if you want a two long nap kind of day.  If you want more of a short am/long pm then I might do something like a 30 min capped nap at 9.30/10ish (if you can get him down, possibly you could AP it in the sling?) and then a long nap at 12.30/1?  BT 7pm ish?  It would be trial and error and as you say could make things worse.  If he doesn't go down, you just push on to next set time -15 mins or BT -30 mins and accept the inevitable OT.  You could always AP a quick CN late in the day if neither nap has worked out?

[katie80]

Thanks, ladies... I appreciate the input.

I am commited to get him to IS, but am VERY weary of PD right now, to the point of feeling anxious about it and like I may scream in his face. It's terrible to admit that, but after 3 weeks of it with rough nights from teething, that's the unfortunate reality. So, I'm holding him for now and will put him down more awake once this second tooth is through. Of course, we are going OOT next week from Thurs-Mon, so there will be a little set back, but eventually we will get there.

As for set naps, I'm going to try to push to 3.5hr A first and if things are still not consistently better I will try it. He did ~3h15 (not really sure of when he woke as I was in with G) and 3h today, which gave 1hr and 1hr10min naps, so he must be able to do more. I'm really hesitant to do the short morning nap and longer pm nap, as there is such little chance for me to get a CN out of him anymore that it just sounds like disaster should he short nap both of them. He seems to do better on an evenly spread day, so for now I think I still need to shoot for 2x1-1.5 hr naps. Today actually felt normal.

What I would also add, because you mentioned that he is touchy and that he still goes down drowsy, that for us (Alon was touchy as well) there couldn't be any WD. I know it sounds crazy, but the WD was so short, always putting him in his cot and then leaving his room.

This is hard for me to wrap my head around, because I've always sat down and had a little cuddle with my babies before putting them down. Can you tell me exactly what you did? How did you cue him that sleep was coming? I feel like if I just walk in the room, turn off the light and turn on the fan, and then put him down he'll think it's some kind of game. I don't know... it is kinda strange, he goes from crying to sleeping so quickly (in my arms, that is ).

Katherine - I hope things have evened out for you after your hectic combo?!

[Ima shel Alon]

Can you tell me exactly what you did?

We walked around the house and garden and said goodbye to all the rooms I spoke in a very low voice and told him that now it's sleepy time, we are going to his room, put him in bed and will have his nap. Then we would go in his room, change the nappy while I repeat what I said before another time about it being sleepy time, put the blinds down, white noise on and in the cot! Inside the room it all goes pretty quickly, maybe a minute or so.

[Martini~]

Katie, we have never had any kind of long wind down. DS treats cuddling as wind up rather than wind down:). I usually do quieter play before nap time and than maybe 5min of some walk with him around the flat, into his room, blinds, sleeping bad, night night and that's all:). He usually speaks to himself in bed to wind himself down:).

[jessmum46]

We go straight from play time, maybe a few mins of me carrying him around.  Then into room, into sleeping bag, quick cuddle and song and straight down.  B chats to himself too or moans/shouts if a bit OT. 

Hugs hun and I think you are doing the right thing if this is all feeling too much.  Look after yourself, I know how it feels to be exhausted with other LOs to care for.  You're doing a fab job xx

(Sadly B is still ill!  Cough and cold, so sleep rubbish, but not your problem!  Thanks for the thoughts though )

[katie80]

Thanks, ladies... that's helpful. I'll start giving that a shot. The second tooth is nearly through, so I'm thinking I can go back to working toward IS in the next day or two (although I have a couple morning commitments in the next week and then we go out of town, so not sure how far we'll get).

The randomness of naps is really bugging me, so I've been thinking more and more about set naps. If he usually wakes between 6-6:30, does 9:30 and 2:30pm sound about right? Do I hold steady to those times for two weeks or so? And what about the mornings we're out (usually only once or twice a week, but still). Maybe this is a post for the Naps board?!

Look after yourself, I know how it feels to be exhausted with other LOs to care for.  You're doing a fab job xx

Thank you... made me cry! Feel like I'm going wrong in so many places and am definitely exhausted. Sorry B is still ill... hope he's better soon!! (((Hugs)))

[jessmum46]

Just checking in to see how you are?

[katie80]

Ok, thanks. Not much different, really. Was attempting to get the first nap set at 9:30, but ruined it this morning as he was really unsettled from 4:30 on, so when he did fall asleep I let him sleep rather than waking him. Just going to get through the next week and get back on track after we come back from OOT. Boy, this third time around is messier than I had imagined!