Almost 9mo - NW, EWs, A times all over the place....

[Mackjack]

Thank you both so much for replying!

Yes, I think there's a bit of 2-1 going on but it's going very slooowly. Would that be causing the NWs too do you think? Because I just can't figure them out - they can be brief or they can last ages.

Yesterday, after falling asleep in our bed til 7am, he held out til 11 for a nap. I was really hoping he might surprise me with a lovely long nap but he only did 1hr 30. There wasn't time in the rest of the day for a second nap (as he just didn't get tired again early enough) so I got him to bed at 5.50pm. He woke at 12.00pm. Usually we just put a hand on his back to resettle him - sometimes it takes minutes, sometimes we are in and out for ages - we can never predict how long it will take. So last night I thought maybe I should try WIWO as I'm sick of standing in the dark for sometimes ages. I did it for about 30mins before DH suggested a work night probably wasn't a good time to try a new technique so I went back to just the hand on the back and it took 2.5 hrs!!!

With regards to the EW, I think we have reinforced this habit (so annoyed with myself!!). Because before, we were taking him in our bed for his milk then laying him on my chest to encourage him to go back to sleep out of desperation. Yesterday and this morning he woke at 530/5.45 and both times, just drank his milk and went straight back to sleep in our bed with no encouragement. Up til now, I've not been resettling at the EWs because I know I have to be  up about 6.45 for the school run anyway so I just couldn't be  bothered with the fight but it's half term now so I'm ready to tackle it. What's the best course of action do you think:

 - resettle as usual with hand on back?
 - PUPD (did this with DD as a baby but never tried it with DS - no idea if it will work with him?
 - WTS?

lauradj - what happened with your DS during the month it took to move to 1 nap?

[Mackjack]

I tried wiwo the other morning at 3.40. It took 2.5hrs - he didn't go back to sleep til 6.10 but he slept til 7.40. I really want sure if wiwo was the right tactic - should it only be used for separation anxiety because I don't think that's his problem.  And I wasnt sure I was doing it right - I just put my hand on his back till he went quiet then left the room and when he inevitably started crying again I went back in and repeated.

[Mackjack]

Back again.

We've had no NWs since I last posted (although I'd still love some advice re my question above about WIWO as they're bound to return) but we're still having EWs and I just don't think I'm getting these naps right.

Today, as some of you suggested, I tried sticking to a 3.5hr (ish) A time whether he seemed tired or not. I also thought I would experiment with giving him a capped AM nap in the hope he'd have a nice restorative PM nap. So I woke him from the  AM nap at 45mins and he was really happy - didn't bother him at all - and I put him down for his next nap at 3.5hrs (well actually it was nearer 3hr 40) and he only slept 1hr25 and woke up really grumpy and clingy which he does when he's tired. I'm fully expecting NWs tonight as well as the usual EW.

Reason I tried a capped AM  nap is that at the weekend he fell asleep in the car in the morning for about 20/30mins and so that was his AM nap. Then in the afternoon he had a 2hr nap, went to bed fine about 7.30 and woke at 6.10. Not a massive lie in but better than the usual 530/45 - so I wondered if the short AM/long PM nap was the reason.

So... what do I do now? I just don't know what else to try.

Last couple of days EASY

MON 27th Oct
BT the night  before was 8pm as he fell asleep in the PM at 3.10 - we didn't know how long to let him sleep so gave him an hour and he resisted BT at 7.30 so I had to take him out of the room and try again a little later
WU 5.45 - tried for 45mins to get him back to sleep - no joy
S10.30 - 11.45 - always wakes up grumpy from this nap
S 15.20-15.55 - in his pram
BT 19.15/19.20ish - was aiming to give him a 3.5hr A time but he came crawling over to me whinging which always means he wants his bed so I put him down a little earlier
No NWS

TUES
WU 5.25 - again, would not go back to sleep
S 9.05 - capped it at 45mins (9.50). Woke happy.
S 13.30- 14.55 - no sleepy signs but went down fine. Woke grumpy

Am thinking I should aim for a 3.5hr A time before BT??

[Mackjack]

Also I should say that first A time on Monday was ridiculously long - but I was trying to follow his cues and that's when he started showing tired signs. Probably should've put him down earlier.

[Mackjack]

Hi.  Just wondering if anyone has advice on WIWO as per my earlier post (3 posts up). Because last night he woke at 3.10am as his nappy had leaked and he was soaked through (aargh!). I changed him,  cuddled him and put him back to bed. Seemed fine at first but soon started crying so we did WIWO rather than what we used to do which was stand with our hand on his back shh-ing for ages. But it took 2hrs! Which is no better than our old method. Ridiculous that his NWs can last so long.  So I just wanted to check I was doing it right and that it's the right tactic.  As I mentioned,  I just go in to him, put a hand on him and say my sleepy phrase and when he's quiet,  I leave the room. Last night,  sometimes he cried as I left,  sometimes he started crying a few minutes later.  Please help! It's so horrid when I hear him wake on the monitor at night and know I've got aaages of settling to do! ! Particularly as I know he's a definite independent sleeper! !

[Mackjack]

Hi again. Sorry, I know I post on here loooads but any further advice? Would be so grateful!

[weaver]

I'm so sorry you were talking to yourself there for a bit, many apologies.

Reading back over your posts, I think you have a Low Sleep Needs baby.  Are his NWs usually happy? I mean, he wakes happy, he has energy, he's only crying because he wants parents in the room? 

When he does a 1hr25 nap in the morning, does he wake happy? and seems rested? In that case, I would call that his full nap, and be happy when he does it.  Equally sounds like a short PM is the way to go for you too.  Overall, a 1hr 25 am nap and a 40 min or so pm nap doesn't sound much but if it gives you a good night, I would definitely go with it.  All babies are different and some just don't want that much day sleep.

I found that my LOs had a witching hour past which I could not let them sleep or BT would be all over the place, so maybe think about that, it might be around 3.30/4.

HTH a bit, and again, sorry you did not get a reply earlier.

[Mackjack]

Hi Weaver. Please don't apologise - I'm grateful that anyone even reads my posts!

I had thought about LSN but I think I get quite a lot of OT behaviour so it's really hard to tell. To answer your questions, when he wakes from his 1hr25 naps in the morning, he's usually crying and looks like he wants to go back to sleep. He does cheer up eventually. The long NWs....sigh....well, he usually starts off crying then is quiet when we go in. Often he can settle pretty quick and we can leave the room and he'll stay quiet for 5/10mins but then start crying again. And as the time goes on, he gets more and more upset and we just have a repetition of this cycle - go in, quiet for a while, start crying, have to go back in. And then sometimes during the 2.5hrs, we'll have a brief period where he just lays in the dark staring at the wall. With my DD, UT NWs were always chatty and happy - DS's aren't really like that. And with regards to short AM/long PM nap - although I gave it a try in half term, it was pointless really as I can't' do it during school time as the afternoon pick up will always interfere with his nap.

We had another epic NW last night due to a leaked nappy. So yesterday looked like this

WU 5.50am (his usual time at the moment)

S 9.45-10.45. He woke crying  but seemed happy as soon as I went in the room and was pretty much ok. 

S 14.30-15.30 Afternoon nap was in the pram as usual

BT So due to short PM nap I *was* aiming to get him to bed after 3hrs A time  but didn't get him down til about 18.25/30. He was doing his thing of slapping my face, waving his arms about as I was holding him in his bedroom. I used to think this was UT behaviour but I think it could be OT. He went down fine.

NW 22.00. I gave him meds straight away just in case but it was clear he was deliriously tired and he went back to sleep in mins (so I assume this was an OT WU).

NW 12.45 for 2.hrs 15mins - he woke as his nappy had leaked (again). I changed him in the dark, held him til drowsy (which is what I do when I put him down for naps and BT) and put him down. He was quiet when I left the room but then started crying about 5 mins later. So I did WIWO for 1.5 hrs. Then tried staying in the room as that was getting me nowhere. Then left room and again, he started up a few mins later. So hubby took over. Finally, hubby left room, he started crying but then went back to sleep at 3am. (We also gave another dose of meds just in case)

WU stirred at his usual WU time of 5.50 but woke at 6.10

If it helps the EASY the day before was:
WU 5.50
S fell asleep for 5 mins on way back from school so battled for an hour to get him to sleep in cot when we got home (as he looked really tired but the 5 min nap obviously gave him a boost. Got him down after an hour and he slept 10am-11.10am
S 14.45-15.30 in pram
BT 1640/45 - went down easily
NW 23.45 settled very quickly (we gave meds too).
NW 23.10 again, settled v quickly

Why oh why does it frequently take him 2.5hrs to settle when he wakes at night??? He only had 1.5hrs day sleep yesterday - if it's UT, I just don't know how much less sleep I can give him!!!

I'm so, so fed up with this. My life is on hold as every day is structured around trying to get the best naps possible out of him in the hope of a good night. And every night I'm on egg shells waiting for that first murmur on the monitor.... It's making me feel angry and resentful and I hate myself for feeling that way.

[weaver]

It's making me feel angry and resentful and I hate myself for feeling that way.

Oh lovey, I understand that of course, it's completely natural to feel that way, yk? Don't beat yourself up.

I'm glad you've responded so clearly.  So you're pretty convinced that he is not LSN and most of this is OT.  The mama instinct should always rule

Every afternoon you go on the school run.  When does that have to happen?  And how long does it take?  Let's try to shape things around that.  I'm thinking overall you probably want to nudge his AM nap later, and then the PM nap can fall a shade later too, so hopefully the whole day would shift up a bit.  The 'day before' EASY above looks good to me.  If I understand it, he had two short NWs, and overall a 13 hr night. 

As for WIWO, I would drop that for now.  It's clearly driving you potty and doesn't seem effective.  I never did it at night, tbh.  If you know it's going to be a long NW, then I would just lie down on the floor beside the cot, or somewhere in the room, with your hand on his back if you need to.  I would arrange things in there so you can be comfy, so preposition a pillow, a blanket, whatever.  That way you will have some rest.  I think it will be clear if he's settling quickly, or not.  I would stay until he's fast asleep and then leave.  Hopefully that will work a bit better for you. 

You can also do small things like put some lavender oil on a tissue in his room to help him calm down and so on.  And please do something nice for yourself, it's not been easy for you.

[Mackjack]

Oh thank you for your kind words - nearly made me cry

I *think* I'm right about the OT but I'm starting to lose faith in my instincts to be honest!!

The school run starts at 2.45 and we get home about 3.30/45.

Made a typo on the day before EASY - he went to bed at 18.40/45 (not 16.40/45) - so 11 hr night with 2 short NWs.

Yes, WIWO is driving me mad to be honest. Only started it as I was worried he was needing someone in the room to fall back to sleep and that maybe that was a kind of prop but WIWO isn't making the wakings any shorter.

Thank you so much.x

[weaver]

11 hr night with 2 short NWs.

Still not so bad!

Do you do the school run with the buggy? If he is in the buggy the whole way, then I would try to rig it up for sleep. Otherwise I think a nap after 3.45 is just going to be way too late.  3.30 was generally the time I had to have my LOs up, if I recall.

On WIWO, I wasn't as clear as I thought what I mean is, try him and see if he settles quickly.  If he does, brilliant, if he doesn't then set up camp.  I wouldn't settle in the first time he wakes unless it's absolutely crystal clear he's not going back to sleep. 

I think 8/9 mos is a peak time for separation anxiety and while he may not have full-on SA he might be realising a bit more about people leaving and him being alone. 

[Mackjack]

Yes, I do the school run with the buggy. He's pretty good in that as soon as I put the snoozy shade on it and tilt him back he settles down to sleep. He just doesn't sleep for a good length of time is all.

Ah, I understand about WIWO. So maybe walk in and out a few times and if that doesn't work, then set up camp? He's just so confusing as he can settle really quickly and let me leave the room with no noise and be quiet for 5-10mins. Then he starts up again.

[Mackjack]

BTW, he only napped an hour and 5 mins this morning (9.30-10.35) and was clearly not happy when he woke. He seemed very tired just now so I've just put him down for his second nap at 13.40 - so that's only 3 hrs A time. He's never had a PM nap before the school run before but I thought it would be better to put him down at the first signs of tiredness rather than string him out til when we leave for the school run at 14.45 and risk OT. Assuming he he sleeps more than an hour, I'm going to have to wake him to do the school run but thought this was the best course of action - then I will just have to get him to bed as soon as I can tonight?

I'm wondering - I know I said that short AM/long PM won't work as I'd have to wake him from the PM for the school run but do you think if I just let him have 30mins in the AM, then just 3hrs A time then a PM nap before the school run, that could work? I've been fixated on 3.5 hrs A time but if he can do a shorter A time after a shorter nap, then maybe it could work?? So something like

WU 5.50
S9.15 - 9.45
S 12.45 - whenever (although this could backfire if he has a short nap)

[Mackjack]

Well that was a big fat fail. He's woken after 30mins and sounds miserable. So I've almost certainly set myself up for an awful night.  I could cry....

[Haribo2012]

Hi just popping on to offer support, don't cry sweetie sometimes it's just the way it is and who knows why they don't sleep.

I'd of thought a 30 min nap was OT, have you tried an uncapped first nap then a CN on the school run?

The long NW if hard to get back to sleep for us were UT and easily settled ones were OT but like you say I'd suspect OT on short naps.

Can you do a super early Bt if naps are short?

Totally agree with weaver on the setting the bed up on the floor, we used to keep a stack of pillows a mat, and a throw in DS bedroom for long NW....WI/WO for that length of time is just soul destroying.
If it works in a few mins then go for it, if not tell LO sleepy time and I'll lay here till your asleep then no words just the occasional shush it's night times etc x