LSN or something else?

[morvayc]

I don't even know where to begin! Since this is my first time posting, I'll give a brief history on my LO:

-approaching 8.5 months
-from 8 weeks to 6 months exclusively napped 30 minutes!
-only slept until 7am a handful of times since birth
-daytime sleep averages 1hour45 minutes-2 hours 30 minutes/day....total sleep/day averages 12-13.5hours
-began sttn at approx. 6 months, from 645pm-615am (only lasted a few weeks)
-EWs began at about 7 months.....and we're talking in the 4am range! (only recently has this crept up to approx 5am)
-If I am able to settle in the morning, it takes about ah hour.  I have resorted to feeding and medicating her at these EWs
-have attempted all bedtimes, but it seems that past 7pm, results in even earlier wakings
-EBT and SEBT result in even earlier or the same wake up time, with little chance of resettling.
-super happy baby.......super exhausted mom! ( had a full blown cry on hubby's shoulder this morning when the coffee maker decided not to work)

Is this baby truly a lark and LSN or am I doing something wrong.  Please help!

[Lindsay27]

Can you post his current EAS hun so I can look?

[morvayc]

Thank you so much for taking a look! I will post the last three days, but I have to say that the days vary like crazy, so I haven't included feed times.  She is formula fed, and has 4 feedings/day.  I medicate before bed and feed/medicate for NWs, due to teething.
 
SATURDAY
A-6:40-up for the day (after early wakings and resettling)
S-9:30-10:00 (30 minutes)
A-2hr55min
S-12:55-2:25 (1 hour 30 min)
A-3hr55min
S-asleep for the night by 6:20
NW-12:50-1:50
NW-5:20-6:20
up for the day at 7:45

SUNDAY
A-7:45 up for the day (after early waking and resettling)
S-10:35-11:50 (1hr 15min)
A-3hr 25min
S-30 min
A-3hrs
S-asleep for the night by 6:45
NW-5:15-6:20
up for the day at 6:50

MONDAY
A-6:50 up for the day (after early waking and resettling)
S-10:10-12:10 (2hrs......very rare)
A-3hrs30 min
S-3:45-4:30 (45 min)
A-2hrs55min)
S-asleep for the night by 7:25
NW-5:00-5:35
NW-5:55-6:05
up for the day at 6:40

Like I said in my previous post, she averages between 12-13.5 total sleep hrs/day....I haven't seen 14 hrs sleep in months.

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

My DD3 is lsn (extremely so) so keep in mind I am coming from that perspective! We went to one nap at 7.5 months which solved our ew/nw issues (not saying this is your solution but just a thought). We get 12 hours total most days and have done for quite some time now.

I kind of wonder if the first nap being the longer one is adding to the ew. I wonder if a bit more A time and capping the morning nap and bringing the second on a bit sooner might work? Sort of a start to the 2-1 shift. Or just push out the morning nap until there is no need for the catnap. Average A times vary but are 3-4 hrs for this age group, we were def over and above that.

Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!

[morvayc]

I was hoping someone with a LSN LO would respond, so many many thanks! I have been thinking a great deal about attempting the one nap/day situation, I'm just terrified.  I feel like such a terrible mother, because I really have absolutely no idea whether we're in this situation because of extreme OT or extreme UT.  I just can't read her sleepy cues, because I really feel like she has none!  This is why her A times have been around 3-3.5 hours.  I'm just going by the recommended times for her age group, but she could very well be capable of much more.  If you don't mind me asking a zillion questions, I'd love to know how your story unfolded.  Were you in a similar situation, and just decided one day to try one nap, or were you already on a quite high A times before attempting it?  How long did it take your LO to "normalize?" With a 12 hours sleep max, what did your EASY look like at this age?  I really appreciate any and all help here.

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Ask away! I kind of realized she was lsn between 3-4 months of age as we dropped to two naps by four months. So one nap was a natural progression as it became harder and harder to get a catnap in and still get a good night. Our EASY has been the same for awhile...

6:30/7:00 wake up
12:30/1:00 nap for an hour (had been longer but nights got shorter!)
8:00 bedtime

We do play naps by ear - if teething or illness is a factor I let her sleep a bit more and if we get nw's oh well. 

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Just wanted to post to say I could have written your post when J was your LO's age. In fact we had our first one nap day at 8.5 months. I too had been keeping him on the high side of average A times until then and he'd been doing the same as your LO. I dragged it out cos I still wasn't sure and I think he settled firmly onto one nap as he turned 10 months. I should have done it earlier tbh, but I wanted to be sure he was ready for it. I'm now in the exact same situation with the 1-0...

I found with J he preferred a long first A, so that helped with our EWs. But I know some other LSN LOs like longer afternoons. I think I figured it out cos after trying a longer first A, I eventually saw the occasional tired sign in the afternoon, and better nights. Otherwise there just weren't any. I also thought I was missing them til I started keeping him up a bit and then occasionally saw that his tired signs were actually very obvious, he just rarely got tired.  On the plus side, if his A times are about right then he's very good at self regulating, and OT is rarely a problem in that he rarely gets OT and if he does he gets over it quickly. On the downside we're very familiar with 5.30am cos if things aren't right he starts EWing....

Anyway, I'm sure Heidi will be able to help you figure out if your LO is lsn or not, and find a routine that suits her. I just wanted to say that I'm on my second lsn LO and I still hadn't got J totally sussed at 8 months, so don't beat yourself up about it

[morvayc]

I so very much appreciate both of you responding.  I'm feeling totally lost here, and if I obsess about this child's sleep for one more second, I think I'm going to go insane!  How do you really know if your LO is LSN and it's not just a product of something you are doing....or not doing? It's so hard for me to tell, because as I mentioned earlier, her naps were strictly 30 minutes up until about 6 months...and even now, that's what we get about 50% of the time.  So when everyone talks about dropping/ not dropping catnaps and such, I'm so lost, because our "cat nap" was our "nap nap" if you know what I'm saying lol.  Currently, I seem to be getting one longer nap of anywhere between 1 hour and 1.5 hours, and then a 30 minute nap in the afternoon.  These have been based on A times of between 3 and 3.5 hours.  I really don't know if she could go longer, but currently she doesn't really show any tired signs at this time.  If OT is indeed the cause of all this nonsense, then the last thing I want to do is push her further iykwim.  What do you two recommend my next step to be?
oodles and oodles of thanks!

[Martini~]

Popping in as i also am struggling with the same as you. Do not have time right now but will be back here soon to tell you what's the story for us!

[morvayc]

HUGS!

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

I only have a minute, on the way to work...my question would be how is her mood during the day? E was always so awake and happy (well except for teething times!) and also does not show tired signs until she has been up for ages past "normal" A times. I pushed her A out when she was small for a couple of days with the thinking that if it all went to pot she probably was not lsn and if she handled it fine then she probably was - if things had gone into ot territory I imagine I would have used any ap to get her back on track but with a third baby I tend to do a lot of ap anyways!

[morvayc]

Super happy LO 99% of the time....which is half the problem I think.  I was just telling my DH this morning, that in some ways, I wished she was a grumpier baby.  That way I could tell when she was tired or whatnot.  I actually think that when she is extremely OT, she becomes more excitable, which is easily mistaken for super happy.  It's all so confusing, isn't it?  LO had a particularly awful night of only 9.5hrs,  and was up almost every hour in tears....which is abnormal for her.  Normally  when we get NWs, they are few, but prolonged.  She was up for the day at 5am, and would not resettle.  I was so frustrated and didn't have it in me to fight the battle iykwim, so we just got up.  I kept her up for 3hrs30minutes, and she didn't  wake at the 30 minute mark, so I'm thinking that she could probably do more after a good night's sleep?  Do you recall what your A times and schedule were like at roughly 8.5 months?  I guess I'm just looking for reassurance that I'm not totally messing this up.

[LovelyLilyandJack]

I've just had a look back and we were well into nap capping at 8.5 - 9 months. I was getting short (1hr) naps on around 4hrs A and a long nap on 4hrs 45 A. The trouble with Jack was that a long nap for him was 1hr 20 - 1hr 40, so we couldn't fully move to 1 nap on that A time. He's never regularly slept more than 10.5 - 11hrs at night. So we were alternating 1 and 2 nap days. Our two nap days looked like this: a 20 - 30 minute nap after 3hrs 30 / 4 hrs A time,  then another 3.5 hrs A max, then a 1hr 20 nap and then another 3.5 - 4 hrs to bed.  We were switching things around a lot though - J was quickly upping his A time at this age.

Jack is also always happy The way I could tell he was lsn was partly through realising that no matter what I did,  his total sleep was always lower than the lowest range of "normal". Plus, through a lot of experimentation I saw he slept better as I increased his A time. I was very cautious about it though, and only increased one at a time and logged every sleep 

[morvayc]

Our "long" naps are also 1hr20-1hr40, with the very odd 2hr nap about once a month.  Would you suggest I try to have the long nap in the afternoon as opposed to the morning?  I've been letting her sleep as long as she wants in the morning, because the afternoon nap has never been a guarantee, but I have also done the long afternoon nap.   Either way, it doesn't seem to solve the EWs.  If indeed, she is only capable of a certain amount of night sleep, I have attempted a later bedtime, ie. 730, but it always results in an even earlier wake up.  Did the one nap days instantly translate to a "normal" wake up time, or did it take some time?

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Tbh my memory is the pits now...I don't think it was instant but it did not take that long (maybe a week or so) to get things mostly where I hoped them to be. She is still the earliest riser of us all but now I stick a hand in her room and flick the light on quick and leave her play while I chug my coffee. Her sleep from 6 am on is restless if she naps too much (days when I have so much to do I just let her nap extra come back to haunt me!).

My kids all get excitable when OT, no one ever believes me they are tired. DD3 gets downright wacky!