LSN or something else?

[morvayc]

Is the theory that they will wake later in the morning(hopefully) on one nap, because they are getting less daytime sleep with one nap, and are therefore making up the lost sleep, or that they are getting more A time throughout the day, so are therefore more tired at night?  I was wondering, because what if they wind up sleeping the same amount during the day? ie, rather than 3hours divided into two naps, they do one long 3 hr nap?

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

I think the reason for a better night depends on the kid - for DD2 (average sleep needs) she did a 3 hour nap and had good nights so it was more about longer A times. DD3 however seems to need less sleep to get good nights which does result in high A times so sort of the same thing.

[morvayc]

Hey ladies,

Still in the thick of it here, with far too early wake up times.  I'm convinced that LO is only capable of 10.5 hrs of night sleep...max!  She can nap anywhere between 1.5 and 2.5 hours per day, and nothing seems to change the early wake up.....except if she happens to give me two longish naps in a day.  Then we are up in the 4am range instead of the 5am range!  I am really stuck in this early to bed, early to rise cycle, and don't know how to get out of it.  If she is really set on a 10ish hour night, I feel like the only thing I can do, is push bedtime to 8pm.  How do I do this, without offering the catnap (which was apparently contributing to the early wake up)?  Currently, she is usually asleep by 645pm, and up between445-5am, with her second nap of the day ending between 230-3pm.  No matter the time between second nap and bedtime, she is always energetic, and never seems sleepy, but I don't know that pushing her past 4 hrs A time at the end of the day, is a good thing.  To compound the problem, we are heading toward daylight savings in about 2 weeks.  I really can't handle a 3am wake up!   Desperate for some help here.  ps...LO is now 8.5months.

Thanks, ladies

[LovelyLilyandJack]

I know I found at this age that we got EW if J's last nap finished any later than 2.30. Would a short AM nap work for you? Something like:

WU: 5
Nap 1: 8.30 - 9
Nap 2: 3.5 - 4hrs later at 12.30 / 1. Either uncapped, or wake by 2.30.
BT: 7

You probably also need to shift BT if she is lsn. You could let her nap slightly longer for her first nap (45 minutes), and then give 4hrs A afterwards and let her sleep untapped. Then I'd push BT back at whatever rate you dare.... I had to do it with J at around this age and I went cold turkey.  OT was starting to build by the third day cos his WU was the same,  so he was doing very long days for a bit.  But on the third night he caught up,  slept in and his body clock was shifted Once it's shifted you can hopefully have a slightly shorter day if you find the right routine.

Heidi - what do you think? I don't want to give conflicting advice....

[morvayc]

Thank you for the speedy response!  I have a few questions.  Should I bother trying to resettle in the morning?  I find I can only accomplish it about 50% of the time.  It usually takes about an hour, and I only wind up getting an additional 30 minutes sleep.  Was Jack already at 4 hours A time when you tried this, or did you just change his schedule without looking back?  I worry about the long afternoon nap, as our long naps only seem to be about 1hr 15-20minutes....which would leave us with a long time until BT.

[LovelyLilyandJack]

I wouldn't bother resettling if it takes that long tbh. I used to find it depressing, and we only ever got 35 minutes more sleep too. That always meant UT for us.

I can't remember what A time he was on when I tried the above routine I'm afraid - we were a bit all over the place with short nights which didn't really end til we were through the 2-1. I just tried lots of things,  watched how it went over a few days and then tried something else!

What sort of A times are you on at the moment? Have you tried shortening them to rule out OT?

[morvayc]

Our A times range anywhere from 3-4hrs, usually the longest are the first and last, with the shortest being in the middle.  Like I've said before, I could be getting it all wrong due to the lack of tired signs.  To add to the confusion, I seem to get the funkiest nap times....like 1hr5min or 55 min.  Long naps are usually 1hr20min.  In looking at your previous posts to me, you said that you had your first one nap day at around this age.  Should I just go for it?  I have tried shorter A times, but given her early wakings, shortening A times, either leads to needing a catnap or a SEBT.....both end in early early wake ups.  I just can't win with this child.  Do you think God blesses type A personalities with these LOs to mellow us out?

[LovelyLilyandJack]

It sounds like your LO is very similar to jack. His middle A was always his shortest too, and if his first A was too long he'd really pull back on the second.  Once we got through the 2-1 he certainly did mellow me out cos I accepted him as lsn after that!

If you want to try a one nap day, what you could do is push his first A to 4 - 4.5 hrs (whatever you think she can handle), let her nap uncapped and resettle if you think she's woken OT (e.g. If you push her to 4.5hrs A and she then does a 30 minute nap). Then see how she goes.  If you think you can get in a 20 minute cat nap at 2 / 2.30ish then do,  if not then push through to a 6.30 / 6.45 bedtime.  It might be worth trying to shift your day to a later BT and later WU first though, or you're going to end up with a very long day otherwise, and probably an early start the next day.  Though I tend to find jack can handle being really pushed for a day.

What do you think?

[morvayc]

So, I took your advice for yesterday, with some modifications.  I just get so paranoid when I see eye rubbing, that I tend to jump the gun on sleep iykwim!  So the day went like this.....

5am-WU
nap 1-815-845 (3hrs15min A)
nap 2-1210-205 (yousers! rarely see these) (3hrs25min A)
asleep for the night by 615 (4hrs10min A)

no NWs, and up for the day at 505am (which is still way too early, but she had a 10hr50min night, which hasn't happened in ages.  I will try to push out the morning nap today, to at least 3hrs30min, which will hopefully push BT to 645-7pm.  I'm wondering if the almost 2hr afternoon nap and longer night was just a fluke?  We'll see today.  Thanks so much for your help here

[LovelyLilyandJack]

That looks like a fab day (albeit running a little earlier on WU and BT than you'd like).

You might find OT has built but cos she's been going down for naps and BT early,  she's not been able to get past it without an A time push.  You might see a day or two of longer naps and nights while she catches up,  before things go back to normal and naps shorten a bit again.  You might then need another slight A push after that. At least that's how it goes with Jack. But see how she goes.  I'd hold roughly those A times and focus on shifting the day if anything, like you're planning.

Fingers crossed it all works again today

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Sorry ladies - was away for the weekend and now struck down by a lovely cold! I agree with shifting the day before trying out one nap(unless it all goes to pot somehow!). Hopefully the great nap and night were not a fluke.

[morvayc]

Sorry about the cold   I am a former teacher, so was normally plagued with something awful come September.  I haven't yet been ill with this baby, but I can't imagine how you ladies do it, let alone with kiddies plural!  So first nap today went wonky.  I put her down after 3hrs30min A time, and she only slept for 20minutes.  I don't know what that might mean, as it's not a normal happening.  Should I still try for 3.5-4hrs for the second nap?  I think I may just have to, because I am in no way guaranteed another 2 hour second nap, and then I'll be too far to bedtime not to do a catnap.

[LovelyLilyandJack]

I would guess probably OT for that first nap....   Maybe try closer to 3.5hrs for that second A, and if she does a shorter nap I'd either try and resettle (depending on nap length), or just hold out to an EBT and pull back a bit on that first A again tomorrow.

Hope you feel better soon, Heidi

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Thanks ladies! I just hope DH doesn't get it because a man cold is the worst ever!

Yeah the nap does sound ot - I would for sure try anything to resettle if she wakes up early for her second nap.

[morvayc]

If anyone is out there, what should I do??? She woke from second nap after 1hr15min, at 145pm.  What do I do now???