LSN or something else?

[morvayc]

If the afternoon nap winds up being short, like 30 minutes, how long until BT? I feel like regardless of the length, I need to push her until at least 7pm, but I don't know?

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Yeah, I would go for a set BT at 7. It might be rough for a few days but things should even out.  You can always AP an afternoon nap if you think that'll get you a better PM nap, just while you push BT back.  You'll need to stick at it for at least 3 days though - maybe a week.  Whereabouts are you? Do you have clock changes coming up? If so you'll need to push BT back for that anyway...

[morvayc]

I'm in Ontario, so DS is about 2 weeks away, and I'm panicking!  I'm a little confused about what you told me to do.  "AP an afternoon nap if you think that'll get you a better PM nap..".  How much do you think those long early morning wakings, with a small amt. of sleep afterward, affect the morning A?   For example, LO was actually rubbing her eyes quite vigorously this morning after only 2.5hrs.  Because of what happened this morning, and the fact that I am going to keep this nap short anyway, I just put her down.

[LovelyLilyandJack]

It depends on whether you're planning a short AM or PM nap.  I meant to AP a longer pm nap if you capped the morning nap and are worried about getting another 30 minute pm nap.

We used to get 1.5hr - 2hr nws followed by a 35-40 minute sleep and then tired signs soon after as well.  I can't remember exactly what I did,  but I do remember I had to keep J up cos too early a nap caused an EW the next day.  For jack, those 35-40 minutes of sleep were acting like an early nap and causing EW the next day,  no matter what I did for the rest of the day. I'm pretty sure I picked a day where WU time was half bearable (5am or something), and then kept him up til I wanted his morning nap to be, based on a normal WU time.  I think I still capped it (might have let him have slightly longer than 30 minutes if he'd do it), then shortened the next A to compensate for the long morning and hoped for a decent nap.

So,  assuming the A times you did before which gave you a good nap and night are about that, and that you're aiming for a 6am WU normally,  I'd do one day like this:

WU: 4.45 / 5
A: 4hrs 15 - 30
S: 9.15 for 30 minutes if she'll do it.
A: 3hrs 10 (maybe very slightly less if you only get 20 minutes in the morning)
S: 12.55 at the latest.  Uncapped.
BT: 7

And then hope for a good night, better WU the next day and then go back to 3hrs 15 , 3hrs 30 and then whatever A you need to get to 7pm BT. It's a bit risky but used to work with Jack.  Like I say, resettling an EW used to perpetuate the problem for us, and if you have ds coming up you've got to move BT back some time.

I should also warn you that she'll definitely get tired doing a day like the one above and pushing BT at the same time, but the idea is that she eventually crashes after a decent BT. But if you're not sure then obviously you've got to do what you're comfortable with.  Others may have other suggestions....?

[morvayc]

First off, I really really appreciate all the guidance.  Even if it doesn't pan out, it does something for my mental health to know that other people have struggled in the same way   I took your advice over the last few days, and didn't bother resettling the EW, but had to this morning because she woke at 4am!  When you suggest a 4hr-4hr30min first A, after an EW, how long is the LO out of the crib?  I'm not sure that she could last that long, only to have a 30 minute nap afterward......then again, I really have no idea!  What were your LO's tired signs?  I just can't tell whether this LO doesn't show any, or whether I'm just not giving enough A.  Other mothers seem to have LOs who will fall asleep on their shoulder, or nod off in the jumper.  My Lo hasn't fallen asleep outside of the crib or carseat since she was about 8wks.

[LovelyLilyandJack]

No, Jack never just nods off either! His tired signs are fairly typical I suppose - eye rubbing and occasionally a yawn. He gets frustrated more easily too, just a bit more touchy than usual, but I only pay attention to that if he's rubbing his eyes or something too, otherwise it can be hunger instead. He can also act a bit cuddly and droopy if he's hungry, but then perks up after eating so I think that's more a low blood sugar / energy thing than genuine tiredness. If you keep her up a lot longer than usual you'll soon find out if you're missing tired signs or just not giving enough A

I used to have a rule with EW that I'd try and resettle for 40 minutes and then get J up. If he EWs from OT he'll resettle in that time.  If he's EW from UT I don't want him going back to sleep so I get him up. So he always gets around 40 minutes in the cot after waking,  and I leave him longer if he's happy.

[morvayc]

An update from today....
up at 7am (after much resettling)
nap 1-30min (2hrs30A)
nap 2-2hrs! Had to wake her (3hrs10min A)
BT-710 (4hrs A)

What do you think?

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Looks good Fingers crossed for tonight! She's really shortened her A time today hasn't she? Perhaps tired after lots of unsettled and short nights?

[morvayc]

I did the UT morning nap on purpose, then again, she did a lot of eye rubbing.  Teething is really confusing me because I'll think she's tired when she's actually just uncomfortable. If I continue with the one short/one long nap days, and I continue to get early wakings, what would be the next move?  She'll be 9 months in a week, and we've been dealing with the EWs since she turned 7 months.

[LovelyLilyandJack]

I'd do the same A times (or as close as possible) for at least 3 days and then see where you are wrt bedtime, WU time and nap length.  It should be easier to see the patterns after that and then we can figure out what's next

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

I'd do the same A times (or as close as possible) for at least 3 days and then see where you are wrt bedtime, WU time and nap length.  It should be easier to see the patterns after that and then we can figure out what's next

I agree! We did a short pm nap before going to one nap, and from 4 months when we did the 3-2 we always had to apop the second nap no matter what. Eventually the morning nap got late enough we ditched the catnap.

None of my kids ever nod off - not even in their carseats much! I cannot help with DST though, as we don't do that here thank goodness!!!

[morvayc]

Well.......she woke at 430am, with no resettling possible   Unfortunately, I can't do the same A times as yesterday as you suggested given the early wake up.  I will try to stick to the same nap times though.  So nap 1-930, nap2-110ish.  This does mean 5 hrs A before first nap, but she stayed in her crib for over an hour before I got her up, so hopefully she won't be too frazzled.

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Good luck!  Let us know how it goes! Keeping that second A short to around 3hrs 10 will be key and where she can recover from that long morning. Fingers crossed...

[morvayc]

Sooooo.....thus far, the day has looked like this:

430-WU
4hrs 15min-A
845-930-nap1 (I tried to hold off a little longer, but she just looked wiped.  I gave her 45min rather than 30min because we were already ahead of where I wanted to be)
3hrs-A (again, tried for about 10-15 minutes longer, but she fell asleep during her feed)
1230-230-nap2 (another 2 hr nap!!!)

Now I'm planning 4.5hrs A to make a 7pm bedtime.  If she wakes early again tomorrow, do I do roughly the same as today?  I know you said that if I get a decent WU, that I should go back to the old A times, but shouldn't I continue this if it is working?  Another question about these 2 hr afternoon naps.  Today she woke up herself, but yesterday, I had to wake her.  Do I let her sleep longer than 2 hrs if she will.  That may mean that she has more than 3hrs day sleep, and I think that may be bad for our nights, but I'm not sure???

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Yes, if you get another EW you could try roughly the same again tomorrow. It's hard,  cos usually I'd say to move BT a bit more slowly, but I'm not sure that'll really help with DS coming up so you probably need to stick with long naps and a long A til bed if necessary. I'd probably try and resettle an EW for 40 minutes or so, though, just in case you get an OT EW instead of an UT one.

Re: the 2hr naps I'm not sure.  I'd probably wake after 2hrs as well cos that should still be a restorative nap and you want some tiredness to carry over to BT, but I'm not sure that's the right answer for many LOs . I'm answering from the perspective of a very lsn LO. I only used to allow a truly uncapped nap if I thought J was OT, and I don't think that's been your problem cos when you have at least one long A in the day you seem to get better naps. She may be getting OT by the end of the day due to very long days, but it doesn't sound like she's OT going down for that nap. So I'd cap at 3hrs total day sleep across both naps, or 2hrs 15 max nap (3 sleep cycles), or 4hrs A til bed, whichever happens first!

Hope that makes sense.