LSN or something else?

[morvayc]

Thank you for all the support.  It means so much, and I really don't know how you have the time to help others when your own hands are full.  Believe me when I say that I read and re-read every post, and try my best to follow all suggestions.  God knows, I don't know what I'm doing!  LO averages about 2 hrs worth of nap time in a day, but what she gets and what she really needs I have no idea.  Maybe it's the fact that she's getting 2 hrs a day, that leads to the NWs....be it from OT or UT, or maybe it is teething, or maybe at this point it is habitual.  I just don't know.  I know how important and useful it would be to stick to the same schedule  and A times for a period of days.  It would be a blessing, in fact.  She is just so inconsistent with everything that she makes it impossible.  When you said that J averages 11-11.5hrs /day, does that mean he's only napping 30 minutes per day? She seems to be back to a 30 minutes afternoon nap, which today ended at 315.  How long would you go until BT after a 30 minute nap at 9 months?

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Yep, Jack only has one 30 minute nap a day now. Very lsn...

I know you're trying everything you can to get this back on track.  You will get there.  Something will click and it'll suddenly all change for the better. We had months of EW at this age. In fact most of J's life he's EW'd! I accept anything after 5.45 as acceptable now, lol!

If I remember correctly, it was around this age that I discovered by accident that J did better at night if he was awake from 2.30 everydday.  When we were doing a short pm nap he'd wake by 2.30 and do a BT of 7ish, or a bit later. So that's 4.5 hrs A. I think I did similar after a long nap too.  If he's UT he tends to need pretty much a full A after a short nap.

It took me ages to figure all this out though. Be kind to yourself.  You don't have to know all this already.  I only figured all this out with J after lots of trial and error and I still didn't get him to sleep later than 6 most days!   

[Martini~]

We also see this pattern and I read that it's typical for LSN babies. I think it's not specifically about last A, but just about gettting really tired!. And I get this "tiredness" with two options:
OPTION 1
1. short 20min morning (2,5h after getting up!)
2. longer mid afternoon nap (ideally 2h from 12:30 to 2:30 but he is doing 1:20-1:45 here, I am just thinking what are the next steps - put him down at 1:00pm and count on 1:30 nap or make morning nap even shorter...)
OPTION 2 if option 1 is not working:)
1. 20min
2. 45min
3. 20-30 min at 4pm till 4:30pm

Frank is a kid who never refuses BT so this short pm nap is not ruining our day but it keeps OT at bay. However if I make it slightly too long, I will get EMW (not 5am but 6:20-6:30 instead of 7am - right now!).

Not LSN babies are sleeping around 2:30-2:45 up to 9mo and 2:00-2:30 a day from 9mo if you want to keep 11,5-12h night. Sometimes it's easier to let them sleep slightly longer during day but count on 10-11h night but it's your choice.

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Yes, I need to let J get properly tired too. He recharges a lot on a little sleep or on one short A. Makes getting over OT nice and easy though

You're probably feeling a bit overwhelmed with advice.  Do you want to post a couple of days EASY and we'll help come up with a plan that it's possible to stick with for a few days and then see where we are? Something like what Martii is doing used to work for us too. Perhaps if you can get a consistent length night then you can work on pushing BT back, if doing a set BT isn't working. Or do you want to go right back to basics and figure out what that first A should be and go from there?

[morvayc]

Ladies, I can't thank you enough for all of your input.  I feel like you're taking this on as a personal mission! I'll post the last few days and you can see if you see if anything sticks out to you.

WEDNESDAY
650-up
3hr5min A
955-1040-nap 1 (45min)
3hrs5min A
145-215-nap 2 (30min)
3hrs50min A
6:05-BT
multiple small wake ups
NW-310-435
S-435-715
up for the day at 715

THURSDAY
715-up
3hrs10min A
1025-1140-nap 1(1hr15min)
3hrs10min A
250-405-nap 2(1hr15min)
3hrs25min A
725-BT
NW-250-350
S-350-635
up for the day at 635

FRIDAY
635-up
3hrs15min A
950-1130-nap 1(1hr40min)
3hrs20min A
250-320-nap 2(30min)
3hrs10minA
630-BT
multiple small NWs
NW-315-415
NW-500 (ss)
S-505-640
up for the day at 640

SATURDAY
640-up
3hrs20min A
10-1115-nap 1(1hr15min)
3hrs30min A
245-310-nap 2(25min)
40min A
350-430-nap3 (40min)
2hrs50min A
720-BT
NW-230-250
S-250-452
S-505-548
up for the day 550

Here are the nitty gritty details! If you can make sense of it all, I may just have to fly to Europe and kiss you all!  On most nights, she does get 10-11hrs sleep, however, it is never without multiple NWs, so I don't know how restorative those sleeps could be.....despite her happy nature.

[LovelyLilyandJack]

I haven't got time for a proper reply at the moment but one thing that does stick out is that she might do better on a 13hr day.  That always worked better for us.  Also, my guess is still UT. Would you prefer a long am or long pm nap?

[morvayc]

Would prefer long PM, but the long AM seems more reliable....and it's easier to get out and do things iykwim.  She gave me a 2hr morning nap today after 3hrs30 A, but that probably has something to do with a 9hr50min night.

[Martini~]

Will be back tomorrow, but agree with Jack's mum (hon - what's your name, I cannot find it here:D). Not quite sure about 13h but generally 12h is a minimum. On Wed it was 11:15...? And then you had the longest NW. Secondly this NW for me are right now habitual, but how easy will he resettle and how difficult it will be may have something in common with routine.
How are you addressing this NW? So what are you doing and what DD is doing...?

[morvayc]

Hi Martii, I'm Carly.  I always want to know people's names as well, I just never want to be the one to ask, in case privacy is an issue.  So in that case, it is lovely to meet you    Regarding the length of day, we have been all over the place....were at 14+ at times when WUs were 4 am for the day!  Generally speaking, I don't pay too much mind to them, but maybe I should.  On the day that was 11hrs15min, I took into consideration the fact that both naps were short, and that my last A time was 3hrs50min....after a 30 minute nap!  I was stretching it then, I'm sure.  That was the night that made me think that the NWs might be due to OT and not UT, as her naps had been so short that day.  For the NWs, I generally give about 10min to see if she will resettle herself, which she rarely does.  I have resorted to medicating and feeding, even though she dropped her one night feed on her own at about 6 months.  It seems like I could be there for hours trying to resettle if I don't feed.  With that said, I don't believe hunger is the reason for her waking.  I also do shh/pat, and if it seems that I am just stimulating her by doing that, I walk away from the crib but stay in the room to see if she will calm herself.  Last night, I went in right away and fed.  I had her asleep again within 20 minutes, however, without the looong waking, she was up again just before 5am, and then again for the day at about 550.  9hrs 50 min night sleep in total.....and broken sleep at that.

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Hi again.  Sorry for offering to help and then disappearing. We've all been ill and are away for half term, so have been packing and generally busy. I'm Kate btw

It looks like she's averaging 12.5 - 13 hrs sleep in 24hrs. Assuming 12hrs 45 as an average then,  that gives you around 11hrs 15 A to get into her day.  How about trying something like this:

A: 3hrs 15
Nap: 30 minutes capped
A: 3hrs 30
Nap: Uncapped - hopefully at least 1.5hrs. Looks like this will fall around 1ish?
A: 4hr 15 - 4hr 30, depending on how the day has gone.
BT between 7 & 7.30 and no earlier.

I'm afraid you probably need to start being stricter with the nws too, otherwise you're not going to know if anything is working, or if she's waking out of habit. I believe PUPD is the tool to use,  and if I remember correctly, you don't PU at this age,  you just PD and use your voice to settle. I'll be back with a link. You probably need to do a little bit of sleep training, try the routine above for a week, and then see where you are.  If you stick to the A times above, note how long she sleeps and her mood then we can see where we are. If she's in an UT/OT cycle, then she'll need pushing to get out of it.  If it doesn't work, and at the worst OT has built up,  we'll help you fix it.

The only other thing I wanted to add was that J had long nws several nights a week until he was about one.  Then it suddenly stopped. In the same week I got strict about how I dealt with nws, and he significantly reduced the amount of day sleep he'd do (to around an hour). So I never knew what did it,  or if he simply grew out of them.  But they did end!

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Here's the link for PUPD:

How to PU/PD (inc age adaptations)

[Martini~]

Generally agree with Kate, however... I think I wouldn't cap first nap. He seems to like longer first nap and even if this is not what you would like, he seems to need it. Maybe if you want him to have it shorter, just put him down after short A, let's say 3h? So with 6am WU, nap at 9am and then 1pm and let him sleep as much as he wants? BT not earlier then 7pm.

Just from my experience, if your second nap will be short you will be doomed to 3rd catnap or EBT which is dreadful:(. If you push him too much, you will have a OT kid at BT and for example my DS likes long A till BT but if I push too much or do it for couple of days, he starts to do into hiperactive mode and have problems with setlling and he starts to WU early...

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Yes, that's a good way of making that first nap shorter.  We had to cap it in order to get a decent second nap but you need to figure out what works for your LO

[Martini~]

Hmm, maybe I am a bit scared of capping as my DS is in a nursery and his naps are generally crap:))). Many times capping first one is not helping the second one to be longer:P. When at home, capping first nap worked very well for us.

So your choice Hon!

[morvayc]

Thank you for all your suggestions, ladies.  Those days I gave as examples were probably not super representative of how things go most of the time, as I was able to resettle in the early morning, but only after 45min-1hr, using milk and meds!  This had us waking for the day in the late 6s/early7s.  Without resettling, the true WUs are in the 4-5am range.  I guess what I'm trying to get at is that I've pretty much accepted that her night sleep totals 10-10.5hrs per night, and if that's the case, I want to shift her entire schedule so that she would do more of an 8pm-6am night?  It seems impossible to get there right now, with the early WUs and the need to keep day sleep to about a 2hr max.