Alternate routine for 3rd baby during 3-2 transition?

[shresmummy]

Hi, my DS (third baby) is now heading towards 6.5 mo. He is not the best napper and has never napped well during the day probably bcos he is often out and about due to his older siblings activities. Currently I think he needs to transition to 2 long naps, but I don't see how I can do that when we have to be out daily for school pick up between 2:30-4 (right when he'd be hashing second nap).

I've tried to hold onto three naps based on the following routine but it's getting harder..I was looking for advice on how yo deal with this and any routine suggestions you might have. I've heard some mums follow a 2-3-4 rule? But I don't know anything more about that and whether it would be relevant or not in my case?

I'll post a routine test we've been following.. Thanks in advance for your help!

Wu 6:45
Nap 1 : 9:15-9:45 (wakes happyish... I don't bother resettling)
Nap 2: 12:15/12:30  -2/2:15 ( will wake up after 30 mins and I have to resettle in carrier to extend)
Nap 3: 4/4:15-4:30/4:45
Bedtime:take in at 6:45, asleep by 7:15 after a feed

Nws: usually around midnight for a feed, then again 2/3 then 6ish.

He can't seem to sleep more than 30 mins in the day but can at night..

Thanks ladies

[nevinsmama]

Hi there sorry you got missed! How long has she been on these A times? Will she resettle any other way ( shh/pat for example) without using the carrier, just wondering if that is becoming a prop. I would bump that first A up to 3 hours and give it a few days to settle and go from there.  School runs can really throw a wrench in naps! I wonder if you can try to get a really good AM nap and then LO could have a shorter nap during school run or right after? Will she transfer from car to crib at all? Maybe you could try an early bedtime instead of adding in the 3rd nap after a shorter school run nap. I would aim for something like this:
6:45 up
9;45 sleep
( fingers crossed) 11:15ish up
Then hopefully LO can sleep on school run? How long of a drive is it? Maybe you could leave a bit early as that is a bit of a stretch from 11:15-2:30. What do you think?

[shresmummy]

Hi, thanks so much for getting back to me well I just looked and he is 30 wks this Friday. He's sort of been on these A times over the past month or so? But it used to cut back every now and then if he was ot.

The problem is he's terrible in the car..he will scream and not sleep..he doesn't transfer well either and the drive I have is fragmented as I have to pick up two kids at different places! And each drive is about 10 mins.

The past few days he's been sleepy by 3 hrA time for the first nap but then he only sleeps 45 mins and can't resettle. He will only resettle for that mid day nap....after a long A time in the am and a shorter nap.

Today went:

Wu 6 am
Nap 9:10-10
Nap 12:15-2:15 ( with resettle in carrier after 45 mins)
I'm trying now for a cn at 4:45.. He's tired but not tired enough I think. But any later and it's too late

I'm pretty much in a pickle aren't i? I Wish I knew the best way to deal with the next few months ! And as for the carrier bring a prop I guess it is?but he won't resettle with sh pat..

[jessmum46]

I don't think its an issue to have a short morning nap and long nap at lunchtime, plenty of other sleep routines use that pattern.  Sounds like it would fit your day better anyway?  I think you could do something like 2.5h A (if LO is not resisting going down that early), 30-45 mins nap, 2.5-3h A, hopefully long nap of 2h or so (even if you do have to resettle, may need to play with the timing a bit) and then a longer stretch to BT.  If you can get a CN in you could do normal BT, or if the CN is refused then pull BT early to 6/6.30pm until LO can handle slightly longer A times.  It's not a typical BW routine at all, but it doesnt look like two long naps is going to be particularly feasible for you with your other commitments.  What do you think?

[shresmummy]

Yes Katherine, that's exactly what I had in mind because that's really the only thing that will work with the other two and their pickups...

But I've only ever done typical bw routines with the other two so I'm totally in the dark when it comes to other sleep routines. I have heard of one called the weissbluth method (not sure of  spelling!) and also the 2-3-4 one. Are they essentially the same?

I guess the plus of the current plan I have is it might make the 2-1 a bit easier. ?

[jessmum46]

I'm not familiar with Weissbluth, I believe it works with naps around 9 and 1 (something to do with biological rhythms) but beyond that I'm not sure. The 2-3-4 is as far as I know first nap 2h after waking, 2nd nap 3h after waking from nap 1, BT 4h after waking from nap 2. I guess they could end up looking fairly similar.  I think probably the 3-2 is made quite a bit easier by these routines and I guess the 2-1 could be too, just slowly phasing out the morning nap.  The way I see it is you are not abandoning BW just by trying an alternative to the EASY routine. You would still respond to LOs cues (eg not keeping a tired LO awake because the routine says so) and could use your knowledge of UT/OT etc to adjust the times/A times to suit.  I'm actually trying something similar with my DS currently and finding a nap of an hour in the morning tends to be restorative enough for him to do a full A time afterwards putting his second nap (the longer one) around lunchtime. It's not perfect but I do feel like BW has given me a lot of tools to be able to rescue the situation when it goes wrong!!

[shresmummy]

Hi, hope you ladies have been well I just wanted to update..

DS seems to have suddenly upped his A time and is a lot mor interactive and mobile.. Think he's gone through a gs or mental leap. But bottom line is our nights are a mess now on this 3 nap routine, we have
multiple nws and about an hour or two up between 2-4 am

He used to sleep well from bt till 11 pm now he keeps waking every 45 mins or 1.5 hrs. Then sleeps till 2/3 then up wriggling and awake till 4/5 am will not settle without a feed. Then finally sleeps till 7 am

Today ths was our routine.

Wu 7:20 ( after party from 3-4:30)
Nap 9:45-10:30
Nap 1-1:35 ( refused to resettle
Nap 3:50-4:55

I'm planning to do bt around 7 to make it a 12 hr day.

What do you think? The naps are distributed wrongly I think?.

Update : it's now 10:15 pm and he's had the best night in over a week..none of that early night waking nonsense.,wonder how the early morning hours will go. I took him in with the other two at 7 pm.  He fell asleep around 7:30 after a feed. And gas been sleeping since.

[shresmummy]

After my pp, he had a much better night. He woke at 11 as before, fed then went back to sleep then again around 3 and there were no long nw. He fed and went back to sleep till 6:25!!

Today so far:

Wu 6:30
Nap : 9:15-9:55 (woke on his own) didn't bother resettling him
Nap 12:25- 12;55 ( woke crying even though he went to sleep on his own! He sucked his thumb after I put him down but he still woke) I tried taking him in at 12:05 after 2hrA time but he only settled at 12:25

I'm trying to resettle him in the carrier now but he's whining away.. He settled for 10 mins but now he's up and crying heaps. I'm settling with bf (

Not quite sure what's happening. Teeth maybe? Or is it A time related? Do you think that second nap is ot or ut. But he's crying though after it

[shresmummy]

Despite the crappy naps he had a better night once again.

Today he dud another shorter 2nd nap it was APd but noisy 1h10 mins in total. Woke reasonably happy.

Our day
Wu 7:15
Nap 9:40-10:10
Nap 12:25-1:35/40

I think gat 2.5 hr A time isn't getting a nap that if can extend anymore is it? But any later and I can't let him sleep past 2:30 bcos of leaving time for school  pick up.

Maybe try and aim for a long am ap after 3hrA time? But he is very reliable at napping by 9 something and gets cranky if  he can't.. Oh joys of juggling A time!

[shresmummy]

Any ideas ladies? Yesterday we did:

Wu 7
Nap 9:15-9:55
Nap 12:15-1:40 (in carrier)
Nap 5:10-5:40 ( got late due to dd dance class)
Bt - took in at 7:15

He took a while to sleep then we had a very restless night he was up every 45 mins/1 he in the early part)
Are those ut wakings?

I can't get my head around this 3 nap routine anymore he's 7 mo but I can't seem to extend am nap. What A time should I aim for? Anything up to 3 hrs and he still won't extend. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!

[jessmum46]

Hi hun, sorry I've not answered for a while, your thread dropped off my list of unread replies But I think you're probably onto a loser trying to maintain a three nap routine now.  You need to get onto two naps and need to decide whether you're going to aim for a long morning nap or not.  If you want a long morning nap at 7 months+ you're going to need to push for at least 3h A time first thing, if not more.   DD needed 3h15-20 at this age for a good nap first thing.  If you want to do a short morning nap and long afternoon nap I would do something like WU 7, nap 9.30-10 (wake him) then nap 12.30ish hoping for 2-2.5h.  Then bed 6/6.30ish depending on how he's doing.  What do you think?

[shresmummy]

Hi, thanks for getting back to me

I like the idea of your long midday nap, but there is No way my DS will sleep 2hrs ( he's awful at resettling if he wakes after 45 mins these days I've managed to only get up yo 1.5 hrs.

It's all a mess here..the past two days his morning A has been 3 hrs but he's still waking after 40 mins and is not resettlable. .. Plus he's been waking at 6 am..
Not quite sure what to do if he doesn't resettle..he's going to be such a grump!

What would you try if I did 3hr15 min first A time. But he only slept for 40 mins..and refused to resettle?

[jessmum46]

Probably around 2.5h next A time, give or take 15 mins, I think.  Wouldn't be an exact science though, and if you can sometimes resettle I'd err on the side of a longer rather than shorter A as UT naps are very hard/impossible to settle whereas you may have a chance with an OT one x

[shresmummy]

Well so today we did

Wu 6:30
Nap 9:35-10:05 ( he is only having 30 mins now )
Nap 12:20-2 ( with resettling after 45 mins)... But I had to resettle with the carrier
Nap 4:15-4:45
Bt asleep by 7:30( took him in at 6:50 for feed

Nws he's up and it's now 9:50 pm

Last 3 nights he's been waking at 9:30 and will not settle without a feed.. Today he was looking all around..

I can't seem to get out of the three nap nonsense! He's so cranky by 4/30 that he needs a nap.. For that midday map he only sleep a1h40 mins max with resettling.

Is it worth pushing him and take him in at 6 pm bt? But that's 4 hrs! I wonder if this sudden 9:30 nw is because of the last nap? He is also taking longer to settle at bt.

There seems to be no way around it unless he extends that am nap isn't it?

[jessmum46]

I'd be tempted to push his second nap later.  Elsewhere I've seen something like 9.30-10 and 12.30-2.30 as a reasonable routine for this age.  The 45 min WU could be slightly UT and pushing him a bit more may help?  Worth a try?

[shresmummy]

I'll give that a go tomorrow.. Thanks Katherine

[shresmummy]

Go figure... We are having the best night we've had in ages.. Somehow he did a long small nap today and two shorter ones. This was our day:

Wu 6:30
Nap 9:25-10:50ish (in ergo at dds school swim meet)
Nap 1:35-2:08 (was whining heaps and didn't have a good nap) ot? Ut?woje up crying but after feed was very happy till I forced a cn at 4:15
Nap 4:15-4:45 (once again cried heaps for it..ot? Angry I made him nap?
Bt - asleep 7:30-10:10 and he's just woken up..might feed him

What do you think?..

[jessmum46]

Sometimes there's just no logic in it. We've had great days followed by hideous nights and vice versa.  Maybe he managed to catch up a bit so was more settled?

[shresmummy]

I am so seriously over trying yo set a reasonable routine for this kid! Last night he was up and fidgeting not really sleeping for hours on end.. And now he's started doing that for naps as well. He's starts to fall asleep then he suddenly stops sucking his thumb and starts kicking his leg and flapping his arms madly. He did that every hour last night!, today was a day of APd naps because his first one was a no go.

Wu   6:30
Nap .: tried 9:25.. He kept doing the on/off sleep till 9:50 then refused to sleep anymore
Nap 11:30-12:55 (nearly 1 ) in ergo
Nap 3::15-4:35 ( in ergo)
Bt took in at 6:55 fed and started to fall asleep. But then kept doing this sleeping and waking up thing till 9:!!! If I left he would scream blue murder so I had to keep carrying him and calm him then repeat pd only to have him flap all over the place.

Finally he slept . 9-10:15 and he woke and I'm feeding.

What is going on? What am I doing wrong ( feeling so disheartened at the moment.

He is 32 weeks nearly 33. Is there something I'm missing?

[jessmum46]

Any teething at the moment?  I do wonder if you've ended up with an UT/OT loop though.....after a 1h20 nap in the afternoon he may well have been overall tired enough to look like he'd settle at BT, but UT because of the late long nap with only 2h20 A time after it.  Then ended up OT again from protesting. 

I would honestly limit your third nap to a catnap, if you need one at all.  If it feels like it will be forever to bedtime then bring BT early rather than allowing a long late nap.  I would push out your first A time to a bit longer, 3h15 or so and see if that helps him settle better and see if you can get through the day on two naps.  I did BT at 5.30/6pm a lot when going through the 3-2 with DD x

[shresmummy]

You know Katherine I also wonder if he's teething. He's been SO whingy refuses to let me put him down to play.. Just wants to be carried.. Either that or he's falling ill because my ds1 has been sick.

With. 5:30 bt how was the early part of your nights? I remember with dd the ebt trick worked beautifully, but with my other DS he used to keep waking up every 45 mins/1 hr. And plus have ew. I guess I've never tried it with lo so worth giving it a go.

Today I've been aping naps bcos he's so clingy in ergo.

Wu 6:40
Nap 9:30-10:45 was outright crying from tiredness/ something else
Nap 1-2:05 he once again was crying and rubbing his face off!

Now what about bt?

[jessmum46]

Ugh those days are horrid, I used to dread the 2/2.30pm WU from second nap! I would have tried for a very short CN around 4.30/5 and if no joy abandoned in favour of 5.30pm bedtime I think.  What did you do in the end? EBT always worked beautifully for DD, not quite so sure yet with DS but probably because when I've tried it for him it hasn't been early enough.

[shresmummy]

Well I had not much choice today bcos we were at dds swimming. He didn't sleep there which he used to do. Then we got home around 5 and I tried for a short cn. May have got 15/20 mins out of him cos it was dinner at other two were mucking around. Anyway I did bt as usual but he only slept by 8!

Maybe I need to go down the route of a super long am nap and shorter cn at school pick up? Bcos I can't let him sleep past 2 really cos I need to feed before I leave at 2:30. It's so hard juggling!! Lately I find even after a short am nap he's not going down before 12:45 so that doesn't give more than 1.5 hrs max and that can't get him to ebt can it?

Perhaps I should try 3h 15 min am A time like you said and see how long that nap is?

I'll grow a hundred grey hairs before he transitions to 1 nap!,

Update: he's up now at 9:25 refusing to settle without a feed..

[jessmum46]

What time do you start your day?  Could you get up sooner and allow a short am nap aiming for long lunchtime nap of 12-2/2.15?  Say something like WU 6.30, nap 9-9.30 capped then put him down again at 12?  Just a guess but may work?

[shresmummy]

Well we do get up normally around 6:30 but lately he hasn't been sleepy enough around 9. Realistically I only make it back home by 9:15 after drop off.

Today I did 2 naps in a wierd way bcos of his cues..and ebt went hortibly wrong

Wu 6:20 after a rougher night
Nap 9:20-11:15!!! (In ergo cosi was out)
Nap -started crying and fussing by 1 and I had to put him down still 1:25 he let till 2:05
Then I tried to put him down for a short cn around 4:30 didn't work..I had to get dinner etc for others so got him I'm the room by 5:30.

He fed. Looked very sleepy and after his feed he sat up wide awake and started playing!, crap!

I couldn't spend more than 15 mins with him, so I gave up still 6:15 and brought him out again then took him back in with other two at 7. He took forever and I am writing now as I feed him to sleep still 7:45:(

[jessmum46]

Hugs, we had a similarly awful day here x

[shresmummy]

Geez, as luck would have it he was sick for the past few days. He's better now and it's back yo juggling the A times.

He's still going down at 3hrs A time in the morning and doing a 40 min nap. It's the next one he's struggling with! Today he did

Wu 6:30
Nap 9:35-10:10
Nap took him in at  12:40 took a while to settle but then slept -1:30 and I'm resettling in ergo now.

I wonder I should just go the really long A time first thing route bcos now I'm getting stuck beefing a third cn and bad nights. Ebt just isn't working for him he drinks his milk falls asleep then eyes pop open and he's happy again!

I wonder if I bf before am nap say around 9:46 then do a short walk in garden or something and try put him down at 10 he may nap longer? He's nearly 8 mo and has a max A time of 3 hrs..

Ideally I'd like wu 7:30 nap 11-12:30 nap 3:30-4:15 and bt at 6:30. How do I get there!?. X:))

[shresmummy]

So I managed to resettle that nap till 3:30! Admittedly it was I the ergo but now I can getaway without a can I think. My aim now I think is to get 1 long and 1 short nap. Anything else and I have to do that 3rd nap which ends at 5:15 and bt gets messy. Normally I can't let him sleep till 3:30 but today kids were home sick so I could.

Hence my thinking of the long am short pm CN idea. Sorry I keep changing g my mind ! Do you think it's worth posting on naps board to try and fix this kid!!

[jessmum46]

I'm happy to keep helping here but do feel free to post on naps if you'd prefer

In terms of how you get to where you want to be, just push A times slowly 5-10 mins every few days until that morning nap is at 11ish.  I'd suggest a bit of a tweak though - probably aiming for a 12h day and making that second nap a bit later, he may not be willing to go down just 3h after a long morning nap.  I'd probably go more like 4-4.45 and BT at 7/7.30pm but don't know if that would suit you?  Just think 11h day is too short....

[shresmummy]

Thanks Katherine you're probably right about the 11 hr day.  I'm thinking I might try and post on there just to see if I can get some eyes on how to get him to agree to a set nap routine! I guess this post is no longer about an alternate routine anymore is it?  Would love for you to pop on there if you don't mind though..cos you know my sob story from way back I'm going to bed now but will post on the naps board tmro..and will then paste that link here for you if that's ok? Thanks heaps again

[jessmum46]

That's great hun I'll look out for it x