Help! Is this the 4 Month Sleep Regression?

[Cvbaby2014]

So my LO who could send himself to sleep, and slept anywhere from 3-7 hours in the night between feeds, is now waking every 1-2.5 hours.  He wakes crying (very unlike him), will calm when held but as soon as you lay him in the crib starts crying again.  We try for up to an hour to get him down (which pretty much fails every time) and then I feed.  Although he doesn't always fall asleep nursing either so we get into another battle of wills.

He also at bedtime falls asleep for 5-10 minutes then wakes up crying ... this can go on for an hour.

Is this the regression?  If so, do we have to re-train him to fall asleep... effectively we are doing PU/PD with no luck at all.
Naps are also hit or miss, he was able to put himself to sleep (we did PU/PD at 3 months) pretty easily ... now, he may or may not fall asleep.

If this is the regression ... how long does it last?  and should we try and avoid putting him down asleep (not that we have been able to, he wont settle enough on us to do that, he tends to calm but not to the sleep stage).

I am worried that we are undoing all our good work, and all his good work in self soothing etc.

[trimbler]

Hugs Cvbaby 4 months is tough, there's so much going on: growth spurt, wonder week, sleep regression, for some even teething! Some also increase their A time suddenly, what's a typical day like for you, could you post your EASY? Don't worry about undoing your work, it doesn't sound like you are, just carry on being consistent.

Sorry have to go in to mine now who's not napping well!

[Mariesusu]

I am also asking myself the same questions with my 4 month old, who went through daylight savings, 4 month vaccinations, moved to a 4 hour EASY, I'm pretty sure is also going through a sleep regression and a growth spurt!. Our routine is way off. We were working on a EASY that looked like this:

7 WU and feed
9 Nap
11Feed
12:45 Nap
2:30 Feed
4:30 Nap
6 Wake up fromn nap and try holding off his feed until he gets fussy, usually at around 6:30
6:30 feed and bath
7 Bedtime
11 DF

However, for the past 3 days he has not made it to his dream feeds, waking up as early as 9:30 and having multiple night wakings, screaming and not able to fall back asleep unless I hold him to sleep, which I had worked very hard on by using PU/PD and was finally paying off. He was becoming independant, napping for neasrly 2 hours at a time and now even for his naps he seems to only fall asleep while being held and shushed. This is the 3rd time that I've given in after over an hour of him screaming on the top of his lungs if I did PU/PD or tried for him to self settle.
I'm afraid that if this continues all our hard work will be vanished and we'll have to stard all over again. Plus our EASY is a mess, since it takes so long for him to finally fall asleep.
Is this sleep regression? A wonder week? Does it end and do the bad habits stay?

Any advice can help!

[trimbler]

Hugs Mariesusu 4mo is tough! Yes it's probably all those things, and some are even teething too! I do think that this is the age where we have to start being more consistent with things like PUPD, ie if you've started doing it then don't give up until they're hungry or it's been 45mins or whatever your goal is for that particular sleep period. If you give in and use a prop then they can learn to expect that, rather than to learn to go to sleep by themselves. However do your best to work out whether there's anything else bothering them that you can help them with, as PUPD won't work if they're in pain. Also you need to consider what you're willing/able to do right now - if you want to do PUPD then you need to make sure you have lots of support to stick at it. But if you really can't do that right now then do what you have to do to get through this time, but know that you will need to break habits later. But what I've done with both of mine is use the sling for a subsequent nap to try and reduce OT accumulating through the day. I think that's less confusing than starting PUPD in the cot and then switching to a prop, so they know what's happening right from the start of a nap, iyswim?

One of the things we've found with the 4mo regression is that A times can suddenly increase - I tend to think that as a general rule up to 3mo difficulties with falling asleep tend to be OT, whereas UT can be a culprit as they get older, although of course it can also be OT especially as this will tend to accumulate during the day. Just today I know I made the mistake of PD too early and really regretted it - lots of complaining, needed lots of help to calm down etc - oops!

Mariesusu - just wondering about your comment re trying to hold off a feed after the 3rd nap? Do you think he's hungry at that time? We're actually still doing 5 daytime feeds but the last two are getting closer together, so it's more as case of feed, BT routine then top off just before PD (but not feeding to sleep). I only offer that as a suggestion for squeezing in another daytime feed if you think he's extra hungry due to a growth spurt. Actually if he only has an hour A time to BT after a 1.5h nap, that seems quite short to me, you may want to try capping that nap if the others were good, bearing in mind that the 'classic' 4h EASY has the 3rd nap as a catnap. Alternatively stick with the longer nap if that's what he naturally does but give him a little more A time to BT, that would also give you more time to fit in two feeds before BT if you think he would benefit from that during his GS.

CVbaby - I'm so sorry I never got back to you after having to attend to my own 4mo! How's it been going since your original post? It would be really helpful to see your typical EASY to know what specific things to suggest. I would continue to pd awake as you're doing, unfortunately sleep training isn't a one off thing, you will need to keep doing it to some extent whenever there are regressions etc. Sleep does apparently change permanently around 4mo but once they do 'get' IS it shouldn't be as hard to retrain when you need to, I wouldn't even call it retraining really, just using the tools you already have consistently.

Btw you could both come and join us in the 3-6mo birth club (in activity - EASY) if you like, we're quite chatty and all going through (or have just been through) it...

[Mariesusu]

Hi trimbler,

Thanks for your reply. I think you're absolutely right about him being UT. I feel like the reason he was being so fussy and screaming at naptime was because he wasn't so tired yet! He was fussy and it had been 2 hours of A time so I put him down, but there were no signs like yawning or eye rubbing. I'll wait for those next time.
I see what you mean about the 2 feeds before BT and was actually doing this as we were transitioning from 3-4 hour EASY, however I found that because his naps were so long ( He would wake up early from a nap so I tried resettling him and then off he would go for an other hour, which is why those naps are long. Otherwise he will be up for too long before BT for example from 5:00 - 7:00 seems too long of A time for that time of day) Anyways it would end up that I would feed him at 6:00 and then again at 6:45.
I will give him a 2nd feed today before BT.
Thanks for the advice about PU PD -  I was telling myself the same thing and will stick to it because I know it works, it has in the past and shall again!
One question about teething - how do we know if it's teething? I looked at his palate and didnt see anything, any other signs?
I'll check out the birth club - thanks for the invite!

[trimbler]

Tired signs are so hard, they keep changing and getting harder to spot! Right now I'm finding that fussiness can be boredom whereas when they're younger it's almost always tiredness. I'm still trying to learn my DD's tired signs as they change...

I understand about the nap resettling, that often happens here too and makes the day go on later than planned. But I wouldn't worry too much about a long A time at the end of the day after a long nap, that's quite normal during the 3-4h transition. Also don't worry too much about getting 7-7, nights can be anything between 11-13h really depending on how the day went, if you've been logging then look back and see what your DS's typical overall sleep is in a 24h period. If you know roughly what A times he needs after a short and long nap, then you can look back over the day so far and see if you think he needs that extra A time which would come after a long nap, or if he's had too much A time already (due to bad naps) then it might be better to cap that 3rd nap to get the longer night, iyswim?

As for teething signs - trying to remember this myself! Possible ones include red cheeks, drooling, chewing fingers (or anything else), fussiness, feeling or seeing teeth just below the gums, smelly/runny stools, runny nose, sometimes even a raised temperature (although get this checked out for other causes if he has a high one)... There may be more I've forgotten and I'm afraid all of these could be attributed to something else! There's no harm in applying some teething gel if you think he might be teething so you could give it a go and see if it helps.

[Mariesusu]

I know what you mean about the tired signs...right now my LO has started rubbing his eyes, which is new, and burrying his face on my shoulders and he gets fussy, so I try to read all of these before I startd doing the windown routine. It's hit or miss but most of the time he goes down easy. Today is a good day, without any crying or screaming come around nap time, so I think his cranky phase is over (for now anyway!) Still no real signs of teething, apart from his eating his hands all day long.
Is your DD sleeping through the night at 4 months? Mine has only on 2 occasions, and I'm trying to figure out if anything was  done differently on those 2 nights, (I'm not keeping a log) and how it could happen again! A real 7-7 day with no interruptions, how well rested I felt in the am! However because of daylight savings, his night wakings are earlier than usual, anywhere between 2:30- and 5:00 and he wakes up before his 11:00 dremfeed. Hopefully we get back on track by the end of the week, but until then, any suggestions on sleeping through the night or is this simpy developmental?

Again thanks for your feedback! I really appreciate it.

[trimbler]

Glad to hear he's going down more easily now

As for sleeping through the night, it depends what you mean? If you mean going 7-7 without a feeding, I think that would be unusual at this age although some certainly do. But I don't think that's what you meant? Personally, my DD goes from BT to morning (with df) most nights without needing our help, ie she'll fuss for a bit but put herself back to sleep. However we still have several nights where she does need our help to resettle, I'm hoping they'll get fewer and further between but realistically I'm afraid it'll be many years before they'll not need us at night ever! I think the most we can aim for is that they can put themselves back to sleep if they wake when they don't need any thing else, but often they will, as they get older they may start to get night terrors etc or have wet beds or be ill and need comfort and/or meds. I think it's pretty similar now in that they may just need more comfort if they're OT or in pain for whatever reason. (As it happens we're having a rough evening now so I'm typing this in between trying to resettle DD... Suspecting we'll have a rough night too as that happened last time she was like this in the be evening, thinking there may be discomfort as she usually resettles fairly easily nowadays.)

So other than all the miscellaneous reasons for NWs, the best we can do at this stage is examine our routines and be consistent on whatever tool we're using for encouraging independent sleep, eg PUPD. Have you posted your routine anywhere? We could put our heads together on here and see if we have any suggestions - hoping someone else will have a look too How have the last few nights been? Maybe try keeping a log for a few days at least?

[Mariesusu]

I hope your night turned out ok

Actually what I meant is a 7-7 with DF without an extra night feed. My LO still wakes every night anywhere between 2:30 - 5:00ish. Since his WU are not at the same time, I'm guessing it's because of hunger and not habitual waking, so I feed him and he takes a full feed. I'm wondering when he will not needing this extra feed?
Do you think I should just try resettling him at this age? He's currently breastfed, except his DF is formula.

This was our day yesterday. Things are slowly going back on track since the time change! He always settles himself for BT and most times barely needs my help for naps. I'll usually go in to shush him a little if it's been over 15 minutes and he's not yet settled. My voice is all he needs to drift him off to sleep (most days)

E 6:30
A 6:45
S 8:30
E 10:30
A 10:45
S 12:00
A 12:45
S 3:00
E 4:15
A 4:30
S 6:00
E 6:30
A Bath & BT routine
E 7:30
7:40 BT

So far today:
E 7:00 (yay no more 6:00 WU!)
A 7:15
S 9:00

Still sleeping, it's been 50 minutes so far! Let's see where this day takes us

There was a long stretch without a feed yesterday, because he fell asleep in the car on the way home and slept in the car seat once back home for over an hour! He was OT from his short nap I guess...I will keep a log for the next few days to see how things go. I have taken your advice and offered him 2 really close feeds before bedtime, and he's not woken up before his DF at 11 which is good.

[trimbler]

Our night wasn't as bad as feared, thanks

Tbh many LOs do still have an 'extra' nf after the df at this age, certainly lots of that in the BC. I wouldn't really try to wean that just yet if he's clearly hungry. Does he settle easily again afterwards? See how the extra evening feed works out over the next few days, maybe he'll start to be less hungry at night, but for now I'd assume he's hungry and feed him. Also you may find if he's currently in a GS that he'll need that less once he's out of it, I think it's quite common for LOs to pick up an extra nf for a few days during one. Can't really say when he won't need it any more as they're all different, but I'd be surprised if he still needed it after 6mo.

Thanks for posting your EASY - I guess that's not a typical day with the car nap and long interval between feeds! Was he really ravenous afterwards? The only thing I noticed was the 1.5h A time after a 2h first nap, is that what happened? I wouldn't be surprised then if he only needed a 45min nap to follow - or was that deliberate to fit in your trip? Can't really comment on the rest of the day as I suspect it was a bit different from usual? How was your night? Hope tonight goes well. Great to see a nice WU this morning

[Cvbaby2014]

Sorry for not replying sooner!
My son had his 4 month check and hasn't gained weight well, so my focus this week has been feeding him as much as possible and pumping to try get my supply up.
I am wondering if hunger contributed to his NWs....
So EASY has been thrown out the window to some extent, although I am sticking to putting him down awake and around 2 hours of awake time.

The last few nights he hasn't woken up within an hour of going to sleep which is an improvement!

[trimbler]

Sorry to hear that, it's hard to know when to worry and when it's actually just in the range of normal. Who did you see? Have you seen a lactation consultant? Hugs, sounds stressful but hopefully sorting out the feeding will help towards better sleep... Of course, feel free to update and ask more questions here, or the breast feeding forum ladies are very knowledgable and helpful, from my own experience

[Cvbaby2014]

I actually did have a lactation consultant come over yesterday, so hopefully all the things we are trying will help.

I just feel bad for not spotting it earlier...and for the doctor to not spot it earlier, there were signs months ago it seems.  But my LO is so happy and active and rarely asks for food so it didn't occur to us.  Even though I never went more than 3 hours without a feed during the day, it seems that this wasn't enough.

[trimbler]

Don't feel bad, it sounds as if your LO is happy and that's what we want, isn't it? We too had feeding issues with DD which I hadn't recognised for the first couple of months until we had her weighed, it can be tricky trying to work out what's going on but definitely worth it. But try not to stress about it, I know that's easier said than done, but it sounds like you have good support so you'll work through this

[Mariesusu]

I just wanted to post in on the progress we've done with the self-settling during naps ans nighttime, however my DS has now developed some awful night waking habits. I have been logging to try to see a pattern and how it could be fixed, and the only thing I found was that his last nap was too long (bc I was trying to catch up on our short day naps) so I have kept that one at 30-45 mins max, but he still wakes before his DF and twice more during the night.
I have also taken some advice of some members on the board and have topped up his feeds before his nap times or 1 hour after WU, because these will eventually be replaced by solids.

Hoping to get some good advice on how to get rid of these NW

Here is yesterday's EASY

WU 7:15
E 7:30
S 9:00 (tried to resettle - didn't work)
A 10:00
E 10:45
e 11:30 (top up)
S 12:30
A 2:45
E 2:50
S 4:45
A 5:15
E 5:20
e 7:00 (top up)
WU 9:40 (settled back on his own)
WU 10:20 (popped the paci in and he settled back on his own)
DF 12:00 (DH fell asleep! but usually this is at 11:00)
WU 4:00 feed

Any advice on how to tackle these night wakings before the dream feed? He'll also often wake again at 2:00 am and either settle back to with my help
9:40 on the nose seems to be the time he wakes at for the past week.

Also - if he naps longer than 2 hours during his 1rst or second nap - should I wake him? He's currently still sleeping his 1rst nap and it's been almost 2.5 hours. I just think he might need the sleep, and I don't have the heart to wake him!!

Thanks for the advice!

[trimbler]

Well I can tell you my thoughts, with the caveat that you're getting far better naps than we are at the moment so you're probably more sorted than we are!

Ok so first A time is 1h 45 and you get a 1h nap (today, at least), then he did 2.5h A time and napped for 2.25h! That's a lovely nap, did he wake up happy and refreshed? I would have thought that your 1h first nap was a little UT, have you tried pushing his first A? Just that if he can do such a longer A time later in the day and nap well then he could probably stretch that first one a bit? Third A time was less, just 2h after that long nap, but makes sense if you're aiming for a UT CN. The missing piece for me is then the last S time, ie BT? Can't find that recorded anywhere! NWs before midnight tend to be OT which might be accumulated during the day or a too long last A time, do you have a feel for this based on how he's acting? I would expect he'd need a shorter A time after the 30min CN compared with earlier A times after long naps.

As for how to tackle them when they happen, looks like you're doing well already? How long is he awake for before resettling? If it is OT then tweaking the routine should help, just let us know when BT is and we can put heads together.

With long naps, most people would advise capping them at 2h unless they're only having one nap, however some don't notice any ill effects from longer ones. I would be inclined not to let him have a long 1st nap though, as early/long first naps can be a cause of EWs... does he have a tendency towards those? Then again that's a bit late to say now! What was his first A time today?

[Mariesusu]

Thanks for your reply. BT is usuallyt at 7-7:15, but we do put him down earlier if he woke up early for the day or if he gets fussy.

I have notices that with a longer A time in the morning we get a good nap. It's hard to keep him awake as he gets very tired and fussy. But if we reach the 2h A time we definately get a better nap. He wakes up super happy and refreshed!
'
I hadn't thought that his wakings could be OT but it makes sense. He ususally has one good nap and one not so good so maybve he is missing some daytime sleep? However whenever I tried compesatng for daytime sleep, this made no difference in his wakings...

What I tried doing yesterday was wake to sleep. I went in at 9:30, re-swaddled him and put the paci in. He was already stating to stir when I walked in.

Do you think his EASY needs tweaking?

So this was yesterday
WU 6:45
E 7:00
e 8:30 (top up)
S 8:45
A 11:30
E 12:00
S 1:35
A 2:15
E 3:00
S 4:00
A 4:30
E 5:30
e 7:00 (top up)
BT 7:15
WTS 9:30
DF 11:00
WU 2:30 started to re-settled but woke up crying at 3:00 so fed

Today he had a long A time before BT, but as I look through my log, I notice that even on the days where he's had only 2H A time he still wakes at 9:40!

[trimbler]

To be honest I'd be uncomfortable with such a long first nap as it may well have affected his 2nd nap, however I'm slightly in awe of that long one at the same time! I know there came a time with DS when a long 1st nap would always adversely affect his afternoon nap which would leave him OT at BT and then affect the nights. He was a little older then and not having the CN but I wonder whether you might sort it by capping the first nap, perhaps to 2h to start with and monitor what effect that has. Also don't be afraid of EBT if the CN does end up earlier, do you wake him from it or does he naturally wake after 30mins? That did look like a long A time to bed to me, but I know some LOs need that, you will know best!

A for w2s, I've no experience so maybe someone else will jump in here, but I'd thought it was more often used later on in the night and roughly an hour before the habitual waking?