LO 19 weeks early wake up/wake up at night

[NinNic]

Hi,

I posted 30th Oct but have not got a reply yet. How long does it usually take to get a reply?

Things have changed now anyways so need help with early wake up/wake up at night.

LO is 19 weeks. Do you count due date or date you gave birth? She doesn't need BF at night anymore, but she still wakes up at night and also early in morning. Last night she woke up at 4 am and couldn't resettle, took an hour for her to settle with me PUPD and sitting next to her. Shen then woke up at 6:10 am and I couldn't get her back to sleep. Usually she wakes somewhere between 4:00-6:30.

Our EASY looks like this more or less:

WU 7:00 (this is what I'm aiming for but not happening) I kept her awake to 8:40 this morning when I took her out of bed 6:50 so activity time won't be too short even though she showed signs she was tired bit earlier
E 7:00
A 7:20
S 8:40
WU 10:40
E 11:00
A 11:20
S 12:40
WU 14:40
E 15:00
A 15:20
S 16:50 very rarely falls asleep, last 2 days fallen asleep in baby björn as I have given up with bed as she won't sleep,before 2 days she has not had CN only been fighting them
WU 17:25
E 18:00 started to feed her earlier so she can sleep earlier, before I fed her around 18:30-19:00
S put her down 18:30-18:45 but it takes her long time to fall asleep past few nights it has taken 1 1/2 hrs, funny thing is when she didn't sleep CN she fell asleep after about 30-45 mins at night and that was later BT (usually around 7:30 pm but she still would wake at night)

What am I doing wrong here? I was thinking maybe she should sleep less than 2 hr naps during day? I feel that she doesn't get enough tired to go to bed after her CN. Should her CN be earlier. Feels like she needs 2 hrs AT from CN to fall asleep? I read that long naps during the day might result in earlier wake up. Please help!!

[Bears mum]

I'm no expert as my LO wakes a lot, but are you saying that she sleeps from bedtime until 4am?? That's brilliant, I wish for even half that !!!

[katie80]

Hi there, I'm sorry your original post was missed. It is our hope that all new posts are answered by a member in 24-36hrs.

What makes you think she doesn't need a NF anymore? Do you do a DF? At her age it's still very normal to have 1-2 BFs per night. Have you tried feeding at the 4am wake to see if she more easily settles back to sleep until morning?

Otherwise, your EASY looks really good. I don't think you need to limit her naps. It's totally fine to APOP the CN at this point as it looks like she may be on her way to dropping it soon. And, it's definitely possible she needs 1h45min-2h of A time after it to go to sleep better at BT. Or, you could start cutting the CN to only 15-20min (easy to do if she's in the carrier) and then do a shorter bit til BT.

Here's a good link to read through on dropping the CN... All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months

[NinNic]

Hi,

Thanks for reply! 

Oh yes we do DF somewhere around 22:45-23:00. I have tried hard to figure out if she really is hungry when she wakes, she doesn't take that much milk when feed her at night anymore. I also think I have figuref out her hungry cry and tired cry. She woke last night at 5:25 in morning and fell asleep at 6:00 with me picking her up once and then sitting next to her. She wouldn't have stopped crying if she was hungry. Woke up again at 6:55. This is def improvement! Hope it's not one off thing.

Last night we put her to bed at 19:00 and she fell asleep at 19:50, which is better than before. CN was 16:50-17:05, decided to cut it short. She still needed more than 2 hrs between CN and bedtime. Today she had A 6:55-8:55, A 10:40-13:13 but only slept til 14:00. Maybe A was too long, but she wasn't tired before that?

When LO was in Wonder week mixed with 4-3 transition we had to calm her for bedtime by putting her in baby björn and walk around with her as she wouldn't stop crying. A few times she fell asleep in it exhausted from crying. We then put her in her cot asleep. Will this create AP?? Just want to know for next wonder week when she cries hysterically.

[NinNic]

Hi Bears mum,

Yes on a good day. Believe me it has been worse for long time with wonder weeks, sleep regression and 4-3 transition! Sorry to hear that you are having a hard time. I'm sure it will get better. Don't lnow what I would have done without BW!!

[katie80]

Ok, so it is possible she can go through with a DF... I was just thinking that as it was taking you an hr of PUPD to get her back to sleep that there might be a good chance she was hungry.  

I think it's definitely time to stretch the A times like you're doing.  Waking in the early morning can be tied to not enough A time during the day. I would guess the short nap today was probably OT, just due to the big jump in A time.

When LO was in Wonder week mixed with 4-3 transition we had to calm her for bedtime by putting her in baby björn and walk around with her as she wouldn't stop crying. A few times she fell asleep in it exhausted from crying. We then put her in her cot asleep. Will this create AP?? Just want to know for next wonder week when she cries hysterically.

I think if you are using it only during times of extra need, like a wonder week or routine transition, it won't become an AP issue.  If, after she's through the WW and still needing it to calm, then you can work on settling her some other way again.  But, that won't be likely if she is an otherwise independent sleeper. 

It sounds like you're doing well!

[NinNic]

Thanks for the info! 

I have a few questions:

1. She def needed increase in A time, now she is up to 2 hrs 15 mins-30 mins. As she comes up to 2 hrs 45 mins-3 hrs and I'm still only BF, how do I deal with E times? I guess it shouldn't go more than 4 hrs between E and from all the routines with those time slots I see LO's having solids. What can I do if I'm not going to introduce solids until 6 months?

2. If LO wakes earlier than 7 am and is in bed for 30-45 mins talking etc do I count A from when I pick her up or when she woke up in cot?

3. I'm a bit confused with the routine ex. in BW book for 6-9 months and routines here. In the book Tracy has a routine for WU 7 am and S 9 or 9:30 am, which is only 2 hrs-2 hrs 30 mins and afternoon A 11:15-2 or 2:30, which is longer A time. Is this because most babies are more tired in morning?

[katie80]

1. She def needed increase in A time, now she is up to 2 hrs 15 mins-30 mins. As she comes up to 2 hrs 45 mins-3 hrs and I'm still only BF, how do I deal with E times? I guess it shouldn't go more than 4 hrs between E and from all the routines with those time slots I see LO's having solids. What can I do if I'm not going to introduce solids until 6 months?

You can try a couple different things.  One is a top up BF about 45min-1hr after the original feed (where you will eventually introduce solids), the other is a top up about 30min before nap time.  It's up to you what you think will work best for your LO and daily life.

2. If LO wakes earlier than 7 am and is in bed for 30-45 mins talking etc do I count A from when I pick her up or when she woke up in cot?

Depends on the LO... it may take a bit of trial and error to figure out.  I would try to aim for counting A from when you get her, but be ready to put her down a little early if she looks like she's not going to make it.

3. I'm a bit confused with the routine ex. in BW book for 6-9 months and routines here. In the book Tracy has a routine for WU 7 am and S 9 or 9:30 am, which is only 2 hrs-2 hrs 30 mins and afternoon A 11:15-2 or 2:30, which is longer A time. Is this because most babies are more tired in morning?

I don't know... I think it's meant to be just an example and does work for some babies.  However, your LO is showing the signs of the morning A not being long enough when she EW, so I guess she is not one of the babies it works for.

[NinNic]

Hi again,

Thanks for the useful info!

I'm confused at the moment as things are not going so well. I have increased A time since we agreed on it. These are the last 3 days of EASY:

Monday:
WU 7:05
E+A 7:25 (had to change diaper before feed)
S 9:25
WU 11:08
E+A 11:12
S 13:27 woke 14:15 crying- patting bottom a bit fell asleep 14:33
WU 14:45
E+A 15:06
CN 16:53
Woke LO 17:10
E 17:50
Bedtime 18:30 crying and pooped twice, changed diaper twice, still crying, breastfed fell asleep at breast 21:10
E 5:00 fell asleep after

Tuesday:
WU 7:05
E+A 7:10
S 9:10
WU 10:55
E+A 11:05
S 13:30 woke 14:23 crying- patting bottom a bit fell asleep 14:40
Woke LO 15:15
E+A 15:20
CN 17:25
WU 17:55
E 18:15 fussy at breast seems like I don't have enough milk but not sure
Bedtime 19:09 fell asleep after some fussing and mantra crying 20:10
woke up before DF at 22:15 hungry
E 3:40 fell asleep after

Wednesday:
Awake when came in at 7:00
E+A 7:10
S 9:05 woke 9:57 crying- patting bottom a bit fell asleep 10:07
WU 10:51
E+A 10:58
S put in bed 13:23, crying after a while in bed had to help fall asleep patting bottom, fell asleep 13:35
Woke LO 15:10
E+A 15:12
CN 17:18
Woke LO 17:35 
E 18:05  fussy at breast seems like I don't have enough milk but not sure
Bedtime 19:00 fussing and crying, BF again thinking she might be hungry 19:20-19:45, still crying when put in bed, sat next to her to calm her, fell asleep with cot mobile on 21:03

Patting her bottom as LO sleeps on belly during day naps to not get a flat head.

I don't know what I'm doing wrong here and why it takes so long for LO to fall asleep in the evening and why so fussy. Is she OT or UT? Previous days before these 3 days, she would wake around 45 mins into naps specially afternoon nap. Don't know what I'm doing wrong here either.

Just to add also, I have got back my period few weeks ago and also ovulated last week, which might have affected milk supply as LO can be fussy at breast specially feed before bed or maybe she is OT. I find it's so hard to tell as she is nowadays very chatty and happy in evening before bedtime.

Please give some advice as I'm stuck!!

 

[katie80]

I don't know what I'm doing wrong here and why it takes so long for LO to fall asleep in the evening and why so fussy. Is she OT or UT?

My guess is that she's a bit OT at BT. I say that because on the day where she had a full 30min CN, even though it took her awhile to get to sleep she wasn't crying and upset. I think you may have put her down too early that night, so she wasn't tired enough to go to sleep and just fussed and mantrad until she was ready. So, I think I'd let her do the full 30min CN and aim for about 2hr A afterward. This may make for a 12.5-13hr day, but really that's fine as you'll pull it back again once she drops the CN.

As for resettling during the naps, my guess is that she's still getting used to the jump in A time... it's been significant. The times when she hasn't needed resettling are when the A time is longer, but I hesitate to say she's UT, as she was sleeping long naps before on a shorter A time. I'd give it a few more days and see if she starts sleeping through them again.

Just to add also, I have got back my period few weeks ago and also ovulated last week, which might have affected milk supply as LO can be fussy at breast specially feed before bed or maybe she is OT. I find it's so hard to tell as she is nowadays very chatty and happy in evening before bedtime.

It can affect milk supply a bit, but I think usually right before your period, not during the whole cycle. What I might try though, and this is what I did, is give a feed upon wake-up from the CN and then another one (sort of a top up) before bed. It ends up being a cluster feed of sorts, but seemed to help at this age before dropping the CN. Have you been offering any top up feeds before naps? Just wondering if that might help her sleep through as well. It's not uncommon for a BF baby to not be able to last a full 4hr between feeds.

[NinNic]

Thanks so much for quick reply!!  It all makes sense what you are saying. Will def try out for few more days and see.

I have a few more questions :

1. Is it normal for almost 5 month old to get hungry after 5 hrs after DF or should she be able to last longer at this age? She doesn't feed as long at night as she would during the day.

2. Do you count delivery date (19 June) or due date (28 June) as correct age in BW method?

3. I´m not too sure of how much more to increase A time at her age. How do I know how far I can go? Is 3 hrs a bit too much at this stage? Right now we are at 2 hrs- 2 hrs 15 mins in morning and 2 hrs 15 mins-2 hrs 20 mins in afternoon.

4. I'm unsure of how long the 2 long naps should be right now. If she is up 2 hrs 15 mins-2 hrs 30 mins is 1 hr 45 mins-1 hr 30 mins nap ok? 

5. Should I continue feeding the way I do with 2 cluster feeds in evening like you said? How about when A time increases more than 2 hrs 30 mins and there will be more time in between feeds, do I do the 1 hr after feed like you mentioned earlier or when A time is full 3 hrs?

6. Is it ok that am nap doesn't go after 3 pm so that CN is not too late with 2 hrs 30 mins A time she has now? When A is increased even more do I remove CN and put to bed earlier? I guess CN should not be later than 5-5:30 for her as she needs 2 hr A time before bed?

7. Is the 13 hr day from WU until LO has fallen asleep?


Hope I´m no bombarding with too many questions!  I´m really grateful for all advice I can get!

[katie80]

1. Is it normal for almost 5 month old to get hungry after 5 hrs after DF or should she be able to last longer at this age? She doesn't feed as long at night as she would during the day.

Yes, that's a reasonable amount of time between NFs at this age. She may not feed as long at night because she's less distracted and just feeds.

2. Do you count delivery date (19 June) or due date (28 June) as correct age in BW method?

As it's only 9 days different, I don't think it matters.  If it were several weeks, then it might make a difference, but even that evens out over time.

3. I´m not too sure of how much more to increase A time at her age. How do I know how far I can go? Is 3 hrs a bit too much at this stage? Right now we are at 2 hrs- 2 hrs 15 mins in morning and 2 hrs 15 mins-2 hrs 20 mins in afternoon.

It seems like the A times you're at now are pretty appropriate for her.  3hrs definitely seems long.  Typical advice around here is to add A time and hold for 3 days and if you're still having the same problems, add a bit more.  Have I given you this link yet... Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!

4. I'm unsure of how long the 2 long naps should be right now. If she is up 2 hrs 15 mins-2 hrs 30 mins is 1 hr 45 mins-1 hr 30 mins nap ok? 

Yep, anything that is 1.5hr and over is considered a full nap (two sleep cycles).  The rest is gravy!

5. Should I continue feeding the way I do with 2 cluster feeds in evening like you said? How about when A time increases more than 2 hrs 30 mins and there will be more time in between feeds, do I do the 1 hr after feed like you mentioned earlier or when A time is full 3 hrs?

Yes, I would continue with the cluster feed in the evening.  As for top ups, I think it's worth a try now... totally up to you, though.  Just that lots of BF babies don't make it a full 4hr in between and I always would rather err on the side of tanking up than having her be hungry.

6. Is it ok that am nap doesn't go after 3 pm so that CN is not too late with 2 hrs 30 mins A time she has now? When A is increased even more do I remove CN and put to bed earlier? I guess CN should not be later than 5-5:30 for her as she needs 2 hr A time before bed?

Yes, you can wake her from the pm nap to preserve the CN.  Or, you can cut the CN down to a short 15-20min... but that's where you're struggling to figure out A to BT, so it's a little trickier.  But, as with everything, it's a bit of trial and error.

7. Is the 13 hr day from WU until LO has fallen asleep?

Yep!

[NinNic]

Thanks again for all info!

Things are going better. I think I increased A time a bit too much during the day before, which resulted in LO being so tired in evening and difficult to sleep. I have decreased A time a bit and now at least she has slept her naps without waking up today. The evening is still a bit difficult to figure out. Usually I can see her sleep cues during the day, which would start with yawning and then rubbing her eyes. I can't seem to figure it out now as both before her CN and before bedtime in evening she is so hyper; cooing a lot and her legs kicking so much and moving her arms a lot. Is this signs of OT? For CN she falls asleep in pram so a bit easier for her to settle, but in bed today she started crying after 30 mins. Tried to calm her but no luck at all in the end I turned on cot mobile and then she fell asleep about 15 mins after. Is cot mobile a prop? Is it not a bit too long to take about an hour or more to fall asleep in evening? I can't seem to guess how long she should be awake in evening. Also seems like days are a bit too long as she falls asleep late? Any advice on what I can do?

Also want to add that I wake her every morning, she is not awake.

Is cooing in middle of night normal?

EASY for past 3 days:

Saturday:
WU 7:19
E+A 7:40
S 9:20 woke 10:13 patting bottom fell asleep 10:18
WU 11:20
E+A 11:24
S 13:38 woke 14:22 patting bottom fell asleep 14:30
WU 15:48
E+A 15:53
Skipped CN as woke up late
E 17:43
Bedtime 18:35, 19:15 started crying sat next to her fell asleep 19:30
Woke up before DF hungry
Woke at 2:50 cooing until 3:50 then started crying- BF
Cooing after BF then fell asleep

Sunday:
WU 7:22
E+A 7:35
S 9:22
WU 10:53
E+A 11:02
S 13:04
WU 14:54
E+A 14:58
CN 17:12
WU 17:45
E+A 17:49
E 19:04
Bedtime 19:31 cooing and mantra crying asleep 20:25
DF 22:15
Woke 2:55 cooing, crying 3:15- BF

Monday:
WU 7:12
E+A 7:29
S 9:09, woke 9:54 fell asleep 9:56
WU 10:53
E+A 11:07
S 13:15
WU 14:55
E+A 15:02
CN 17:24
WU 17:53
E+A 18:02
E 19:16
Bedtime 19:50 cooing and mantra crying until 20:20 then crying- tried to calm not working, turned on cot mobile 20:37 feel asleep 20:53

[katie80]

Hmm... it is a little hard to figure out, but you're right it's taking her much too long to settle in the evenings. I think you're just kinda stuck between needing 3 naps to get through the day, but she's not quite tired enough at BT. I think you can try a couple things to see if they might help. One, is to add just a bit more A time again to the first two cycles, so that you get closer to that 13hr day without adding too much before BT and causing OT. The other thing you could try (since I know you've already added A time), is just putting her down 10-15min later than you are at BT. It looks like sometimes you might be putting her down just a tad to early, so she has a hard time settling. Then, she likely passes the sleep window and gets a bit OT and needs help to settle. What do you think?

Often, cooing and awake at night can be an indicator of UT, so you may want to keep gradually pushing those A times. Even by 5-10min every few days.

[NinNic]

Thanks for your reply! What a cutie you have there 

I think you are right that I should increase A time again. LO just turned 5 months today so I shouldn't decrease A time which I was thinking, just because she seemed so tired yesterday specially in morning.

This morning she was up 7:20-9:40 and has been sleeping for 1 hr 20 mins so far so let´s see how rest of day goes. I think I'm watching her like a hawk right now in evenings and maybe reacting too soon to her sleepy cues. This morning she yawned 3 times before I put her to bed and she still fell asleep fine. I guess I'm just so worried to miss her cues so that she gets OT and difficult to fall asleep at night, maybe I'm doing opposite right now by putting her too early to bed like you say. She can start yawning even after an hour of being awake during the day and evening, but maybe she is just getting oxygen to her brain what do I know and it's not her real sleepy cue. What does your experience say?

Should I let her sleep until she wakes for her CN, which is usually max 35 mins usually around 30 mins or should I cap it at around 15-20 mins so she gets tired earlier in evening?

I guess I should wake her from her day naps now that I'm increasing her A time, should I? Otherwise the days will get longer than 13 hrs.

Just to make sure; LO should have same amount of A time before bed in evening as she has during the day i.e. 1 hr 30 mins during day same in evening?

Is it ok to have normal play time for A time slot before bed and when I see sleepy cues get her to a more calmer environment for few mins before putting her to bed?

Just wanted to add that today woke LO from CN at 18:00 and fell asleep 21:00, she didnt feel tired before 2 hrs 20 mins after CN of 20 mins. Is it ok to start day 7:30 am and remove CN and put to bed earlier as now days are almost 14 hr days?