Best approach to 1-0 with early waker

[LovelyLilyandJack]

I wasn't going to post about this, as J is currently cutting molars so I was letting all his monkey sleep ways pass me by until his teeth were through.  However, he's upped the ante, so I guess I have to, too...  I'm pretty confident we're mid way through the 1-0.  I know he's young, but he's also very LSN and is actually doing this at around the time I thought he would.  He's been EW on and off for months. I ignored a lot in case of the 18 month SR, then I ignored some more cos his teeth were moving, then we had the clock change, then his molars actually started cutting. But now he's moved from EWing to fighting naps and BT too. It's extremely unusual for him to fight sleep - it's usually his last weapon in the fight to get me to change his routine.  So I can't put it off any more.

The general patterns I've noticed over the last few months of trying different nap times, lengths and bedtimes is:

- If he's left to himself he'll sleep 45-60 minutes in the day. The later in the day he naps, the longer he sleeps.
- If I let him nap as long as he likes for more than 2 days, he starts with chatty nws, ews, fighting naps and BT.  E.g. Today is day three on that plan and he fought his nap, then only had a short nap in the car (capped), then fought bedtime for 40 minutes, which he hasn't done since the 2-1.  He's always EW'd on the day he fights naps, which makes it hard to do a NND, but today a nap didn't seem to help either.
- If I cap his nap to 30 minutes, after 2-3 days he stops fighting naps and starts doing longer nights.  This lasts for about 3 days, and then the EWing starts again. 
- His mood after a 30 minute nap is exactly the same as after an hour long nap - happy.  And he's always fine right up til bedtime.
- He's fine after a 10.5 hr night. Much less and he has an energy dip before lunch.  An 11hr night is ideal but also about the maximum we can get from him, unless he's very OT, and even then we haven't had anything longer than 11 hrs for months.
- His average sleep in 24hrs is 11.5 hrs at the moment.  The best we get is 12 hrs if he's really tired. Sometimes it's 11.

I know I still have to factor teeth in, and that things may change again after they're through, but it's normally very obvious when he's OT, and it's very easy to fix - he always does a nice long nap if he's tired and naps late enough - so I'd like to try a few things now to see how much is routine related.

Anyway, I'm thinking I should start with a few NNDs, tbh.  But I'm not sure which approach to take.  My daughter was also (less) LSN, and with her we skipped naps if she didn't fall asleep within 30-45 minutes, but she used to lie in bed chatting to herself if she didn't want to nap, and J just screams.  I don't fancy WIWO on an almost daily basis, which is where I'm heading if I don't cap.  So, should I offer a capped nap each day, and a NND on day 3/4 before he EWs again - OR let him nap as long as he likes, but allow him not to nap when he starts EW and fighting them (bearing in mind we're stuck with a long day once he starts EWing)?  On NNDs, how do I stop him falling asleep in the buggy on the school run?! If he does, should I let him have 10 minutes, or just wake him?  And most of all - what time should I do BT on a NND, bearing in mind that he won't tack on to give a night of more than 11 hrs?!

Sorry, this is really long.  I've just tried a lot already and don't want to go through it all again, so thought I might as well write down what I've noticed already.  Well done if you got this far! Feel free to tell me if you think I've got completely the wrong end of the stick with him and it's all OT / teeth related (meds don't help btw)...  His routine on a good capped nap day is:

WU: 6 (5.30 if he EWs)
Nap: 1.15 - 1.45
BT: 7.20 to be asleep by 7.30

And on a good uncapped nap day:

WU: 6 ( as above for EW)
Nap: 1 - 1.45/2
BT: 7.20 to be asleep by 7.30.

On a bad day he EWs at 5.30 and fights naps and BT. 

Any thoughts about what to try next, or how to handle NNDs?

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

I have been pondering this myself as I am sure we are not far behind you. I know for me I would love to have her do quiet time in the crib but I bet that won't fly. Would he be happy in bed with some books/soft toys with the light on? Just for a break time?

As for a quick nap on the school run...do you think that would actually be a good thing on a nnd?

Ebt has never worked here and if an 11 hr night is the best thing so far I would not want to do bed before 7 pm! But I am not morning person at all.

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Yes, I was thinking of maybe sticking with the set BT approach and just doing 30 minutes earlier on NNDs.

So if he falls asleep on the school run, let him have 10 minutes?  That'd be at 3.15ish.

No idea what to do today - he reluctantly fell asleep at 8pm and was up again at 5   He's vehemently fighting my attempts to resettle! I don't think he'll do it, but I have a rule not to get him up before 6, and ideally 6.15. Gro clock is arriving tomorrow   Anyway,what do you think?  30 minute nap?  And BT....?

[jessmum46]

In case it helps I'll tell you what we did with DD - not as LSN as your DS but was done with 1-0 by 2y5m pretty much. 

WU - whenever, never woke her unless we had to for nursery
Not out of bedroom until 6.30am
Attempt nap every day - around 1.30pm I think by the point we were getting quite a lot of refusals
If didn't nap aim for 45-1h quiet time (I started leaving some books/toys on her bed and dimming lights, though not totally dark)
If napped woke by 3ish
If hadn't napped and was clearly tired (would be obvious after a couple of NNDs) then up to 20 min CN in the car around 3pm - she was fairly easy to wake after 15-20 mins and mood would be ok, any longer she was awful to wake and would be miserable until BT
If napped, BT 7pm
If didn't nap, BT 6.30pm

We only did the CNs for a few weeks and then she stopped falling asleep for them.  Occasionally she would take an early nap (probably once a week) at nursery around 12ish for up to an hour, but once that impacted on BT we stopped that too. 

Maybe some ideas there?

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Thanks Katherine.  I'm a bit torn with J cos he only refuses naps if I've let him sleep 45-60 minutes for a couple of days (rather than capping at 30 minutes), but by the time he's refusing naps he's already gone back to EW, which gives a really long day. 

For example, Saturday he woke at 6am, napped for an hour and was asleep for the night by 7.30, then Sunday he EW at 5.30, then refused a nap at 1.  We were going out, so he then fell asleep in the car at 1.40.  I let him have half an hour, but then he refused BT til 8 and EW again at 5.  So we get in a viscious circle which starts with EW and can probably only really end with a NND.  But even with an EBT, that's 5.30-7 on a NND?!!!  Mind you, he'd always be able to catch up the next day, but I don't fancy making 5am starts a regular thing.  Did you just always count the day as starting as 6.30, and ignore how long your LO had been awake before then?  In which case J's day would be 12.5hrs rather than 13.5 in that example?

My other option is to cap his nap.  He will take a nap every day like that though I think, so I have to actively decide when to let him nap and when not to.  I'd much prefer to give him the opportunity to sleep and then not force it if it isn't happening, but I don't think this will work with a capped nap.  He'll nap and then it robs from ONS.  Urgh. 

I suppose the other thing I could do is cap his nap and ask him each day if he wants to nap and go by that.  If he's tired he will say he wants to sleep if asked.  The days he's said he doesn't want to nap (but then does) are the ones which are followed by an EW, so I could theoretically follow his lead that way.  Feels a bit wrong trusting a 20 month old to make a good decision about whether they want to nap or not though!  How long til he gets wise to that?!!

[jessmum46]

If he refuses naps on days he's had an EW (and therefore I presume longer A time before you try for a nap?) do you think you're missing his window?  Possibly he's already OT so can't settle?  Have you ever tried an early nap, say 5h after WU?  I never thought DD would go for it but during the 1-0 she occasionally did at nursery at about that time and the subsequent long A to bedtime seemed to compensate for it ok without too many issues.

I never really 'counted' anything once we hit this stage, just accepted BT was where it was and the day length was however long it happened to be, does that make sense?  So yes she did some 13h+ NNDs but I wasn't ever convinced sticking to a set day length was the way forwards.

[LovelyLilyandJack]

He's done many a nap at 1ish (or 1.30 even) with a 5.30am start.  They're sort of standard for us since he's a big early waker.  And he normally prefers a long morning - I haven't been able to AP within 4 hours of WU for about a year (unless he's OT), and now he can be in the car 6 hrs after waking without any real danger that he'll fall asleep.  So under normal circumstances I wouldn't say I'm missing his window, but who knows where we are right now!  I did wonder a few days ago if he was tired cos he'd had a bug, so he has had 2-3 days of letting him nap as much as he likes, with an earlier nap of 12.30, and doing slightly earlier BT.  He's had lots of quiet time in the day as well cos we've all been ill, so he's had extremely low key days and has barely been out.  But it's since we did that that the nap and BT refusals have really ramped up, so I was assuming that probably meant UT rather than OT?

That's interesting about ignoring wake up and day length.  I was that way with my daughter I think - I pay more attention to day length now than I used to.  But he's very body clock driven so probably just sticking with a set BT (give or take half an hour) should be enough for him.

His gro clock arrived today, so if we can get to the point where he's not screaming from 5am (like this morning), then I'll definitely work on the basis that cot time is restful and therefore his day starts when the sun comes up.  I really hope it works as well for him as it did Lily.  Even if it doesn't get him sleeping longer, I just want him to lie quietly for a bit when he wakes...

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

I tend to not count either, we just go with whatever, keep bedtime & naptime the same and tbh I have no clue when she actually wakes up in the morning! I usually hear a soother go flying between 6-6:30 but tbh I have no idea if she wakes then or not and if she fusses if I reach in and flip on her light she will lay quietly for up to 20 minutes! Crazy really as she is usually so demanding, must know mom needs coffee!

Masyn & Spencer both were very good at telling on their own if they were tired, I think I would trust his judgement and see how that goes for now!

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Thanks both. I think I'm going to have to go by his cues / his lead cos we're way off routine now.  Nursery didn't put him down til 2.30 yesterday. He was up at 3.50 am and didn't resettle til 6.40  By which time it was already time to get up for work, school etc.  We had this with the 2-1. I can't bear to go back there. So what's my plan?  Offer a capped nap at 1ish and not push it if he doesn't take it. BT no earlier than 7?

I think he's likely to be OT now after 2 terrible nights. Should I try and sort that first or just let him ride it out?

[LovelyLilyandJack]

No choice in the matter - he refused to nap at nursery, but settled for bed straight away without a peep! We'll see what tonight brings....

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Fx tonight is good! And long!

[jessmum46]

How did it go?

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Not bad He had a brief nw at 3, and again from 5.30 - 5.55, but he then slept til 6.45  So he did better overall I think,  considering he was visibly extremely tired / OT going to bed last night.  Hopefully a NND which wasn't preceeded by 2 terrible nights would go even better. The only thing is, he might not be ready to nap after only 6hrs A today, but we can't do much later or it'll affect nights. But he's with my husband today so that's his problem 

So I think NNDs are probably the way to go. Nice to have that confirmed

[jessmum46]

Good luck, I actually found it the easiest tranistion overall so welcome to the fun!

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Yeah 1-0 was the easiest (well except no more Y time unless I convinced them to do quiet time!).