Guidance on Dropping DF

[Kristin.S]

Hello!
I would appreciate guidance on the best way to drop the dream feed when BF, as well as any thoughts on when to drop it.

My son is 7.5 months old and EBF. He has been eating solids for 2 months and is now eating about 30ml 3 times a day one hour after milk. He's on 4hr EASY with feeds at 7/11/3/6:30. He is also sleeping through the night right now (adding to my worry that dropping the DF will start NW again!). He usually nurses on both sides during the DF and seems to take a lot of milk.

Here are some of my questions/concerns:
-I've reread the section in Tracy's book, and working the DF time back in increments makes sense. However, I'm unsure how to increase the ounces given during the day and decrease the ounces at night if you are BF?? He only eats as much as he wants to eat during each feed. Will he naturally just take more during the daytime feed? Won't it take a couple days for my daytime supply to catch up, and in that case, wouldn't he be hungry and more likely to wake at night? I could see only offering one breast during the DF (which he would probably be upset about), but not sure how else to reduce the DF quantity.
-Once I stop the DF, should I continue pumping at the DF time in order to have extra to give him during the day? Not sure whether this ends up messing up the supply and I should just let his demand bump it up during the day.
- if I currently do his last feed at 6:30, would I keep backing the DF time up until I get to 6:30 or stop at 9p?
- I saw another post about reintroducing a cluster feed in the evening to help offset the DF. Do you do this right away or wait until you've backed the DF up to 9p before starting to cluster? At what time should I cluster, 8p?
- For how long do you need to cluster feed after you drop the DF? How do you phase out the cluster after you've started it?
- how do you know when it's time to drop it he DF? His nursing sessions are often 5-6 min (fast let down) and morning feed is no different. Sometimes he eats for 8-10min but usually not less than 5.

Sorry for all the questions..appreciate your guidance!

Kristin

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Hi! A lot of the bf info in the books is outdated, though of course with Tracy passing away it has never been updated. I would say it is the norm to have a df or nf (or two ) quite a bit longer. I know my DD3 was not totally off nf's until 9 months or so (not ebf but mix fed). So if it is working for you I personally would keep doing it for now. My older kids dropped their nf by sleeping through or refusing to feed but DD3 I had to actively stop  (I actually swapped bf for bottles and then went cold turkey).

[Kristin.S]

Hi,
Thanks for your reply. Good to know that it's normal to continue the DF for a while. I remember reading that you should stop the DF later if you are BF, but Tracy also says that it's a good idea to drop the DF once solids are firmly established, which they are for him now...hence why I was hoping for guidance!

What do you mean by slept through the DF? You just didn't go in for the DF and they slept through the night?? Right now I go in to feed him and don't wait for him to wake up (though sometimes I oversleep and he does wake up and remind me that it's time to eat!). When I oversleep, I just go in and feed him when I wake (sometimes after 11, which I know isn't ideal, but better than him waking hungry at 3 or 4a).

We haven't been doing any other NF for several months now, and I don't feed him in the AM until 7 regardless of when he wakes, so he's on a pretty set routine and it seems to suit him.

Is there some sign or signal I should wait for to know when to drop it? I suppose I could test out not doing it, but if it doesn't work then I suppose I would still need to feed him if he woke hungry at 3 or 4a, right? I don't want to create a NW monster by trying to drop the DF!?

Thanks,
Kristin

[*Ali*]

I would look for him to stop eating so much at the DF or stop being interested in the morning feed before trying to change things.

Also check out this FAQ. "How do I implement/drop the dreamfeed?"

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

I meant slept through the nf's and refused df's outright! One night or so of not doing it probably won't result in a nw habit but might give an idea whether he is ready or not.

[Kristin.S]

Makes sense, thanks for your help. So far when I've accidentally slept through a DF, he still wakes me up to eat later in the night, so it sounds like we aren't ready to cut it yet.

[Martini~]

For us the signs were:
- morning feed around 100ml and refusing more
- DF was unpredictable, he could take 20ml or 200ml

Still, I would wait until these signs are present for 2/3 weeks and than try to drop DF cold turkey or gradually, whatever you think it's best for you.

[Kristin.S]

Thanks! Why would the variability in DF quantity be a sign for you to stop, simply that he doesn't need it if he's taking less sometimes? Wouldn't he still need it if sometimes he eats a full feed? It sounds like as long as he keeps taking a full feed (usually 8-10min on both sides), I should keep the status quo.  It doesn't seem to affect he amount of solids he is eating (one of Tracy's concerns) as he is still eating quite a lot of solids along with regular feedings.

I feed him solids one hour after he has milk, 3 meals per day. I've read in several places that they should get the majority of their nutrition from milk until they hit 1yo. Should I be concerned that he may be eating too much solid food? Reason I ask is that I usually BF and don't pump/give bottle, but had to pump and give a bottle on Wed for the 3p feeding. I was quite concerned because I only pumped 2.5oz! I was rushed but even pumping on the 2nd side didn't yield much more. Normal should be 6-7 oz per feeding I think? Not sure if that was just a fluke or if I should be worried that he's favoring solids over milk and that's causing my supply to diminish. He will be 8mos old on the 25th and has been steadily in the 50th percentile for weight. What do you think?

Thanks!

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Pumping isn't really a good indication of what the baby can get. They are way more efficient than a pump! If he is not waking any extra at night looking for feeds I am thinking he is getting what he needs!

[Martini~]

If he didn't start to wake during night (for additional milk) I wouldn't be concerned. He is taking what he needs. It is however possible that he is diminishing his daytime milk feeds and favourite a DF as he is not so hungry during day. But it is very difficult to check when BF so I wouldn't be so much concerned if you ask me. Remember that yield is not a valueable proof for your milk supply and this wouldn't worry me. Is your son taking both sides and finish his milk feeds contended? Do you feel (by time he is feeding) that his DF is bigger than other feeds of the day?
If yes, you may try to shorten slightly his DF to encourage him very gently to increase his milk intake during day.

Regarding solids, 3 meals at this age is fine in my opinion however there are kids who will refuse one of their milk feeds when on 3 meals at this age. But if your soon is eagerly taking every milk feed, I wouldn't be concerned. If he starts to do so, you may stop giving breakfast or dinner. I had times with DS when he was refusing 11am milk so I just cut out breakfast for some time (2 weeks...) and than once again offer it and he was ok. Some people stop dinner (it's wise if your milk feeds during day are postponed because of naps. So if milk feeds are 7, 12, 4 and let say 6:30/7:00 there is no time for proper tea/dinner at 5pm as he may not be yet hungry or he will be hungry but will refuse his BT feed.

Regarding DF, I would probably start to actively making it smaller around 9mo if he doesn't stop it by himself.

Why different size of milk feeds was a sign for us? You know, I perceive my son as a smart beast:). When his milk needs are dropping I cannot do much to change it. When he was drinking less during day, I thought giving him DF was a great idea to make his milk intake bigger. But it was a vicious cycle, as if he took DF, one of his day time milk (or more) were smaller. His overall milk intake during day stayed the same when I dropped DF, he just started to take bigger daytime feeds. So for my son, when his milk needs drop down he alternate which bottle of the day he will refuse or not take to the full. That's happened with DF. He was taking 20ml after day of good feeds, and if he took 200ml it usually meant his morning or pre-noon milk will be smaller.

[*Ali*]

If he is less interested in milk then I may be tempted to limit solids but if he is still taking 4 full feeds a day plus the DF then I wouldn't worry about it.

BF babies take less at each feed than a FF baby. 25oz a day is average so that would be 5oz a feed on average if your LO is taking 5 feeds. But I would fully expect that my kids at least would take more in the morning and BT feeds than in the middle two feeds so it could easily be more like 6oz, 4oz, 4oz, 6oz and 5oz for DF for example. As pps say the pump is not indicative of the amount available to your baby. Even when Tracy recommended the yield test she said a baby will typically get one more ounce than you pump but that has since been proven wrong as most babies will get significantly more than that. That's why we don't recommend the yield test anymore.

[Kristin.S]

Thank you all SO much all of your guidance and great info. This is very helpful. I didn't realize that the yield wasn't considered an effective measure of what the baby gets...I was still going off of what Tracy's book said (keeping in mind that he can probably get an extra ounce). Good to know. So if I do need to pump, I guess I should also provde backup milk? I don't have a good backup/ frozen supply built up because I haven't needed it (and feel like I don't have much extra given how much he is eating).

To answer the questions: yes, for now he is sleeping more or less through the night. I don't feed him when he wakes an he always goes back to sleep until the 7a feed. Also no hungry crying at night, just whining or fussing. He definitely eats for longer during the DF than during his daytime feeds, so he is probably taking in more (not sure what middle of the night supply is like versus daytime supply). He eats quickly during the day, usually 5-6 min and the DF is more like 10min per side...he always seeks the 2nd side too. I always offer both sides during feeds and generally he'll take the second side for only a minute or two. Sometimes if he's really hungry he will take 4min on the 2nd side. That's another reason that I didn't think I should worry too much..if he's not draining both sides and doesnt seem hungry after, I assume he's eating enough. This has happened a couple times during the 6:30 evening feed, which I suppose could have been a growth spurt, and I just put him to bed and figured he would catch up during the DF. Hasn't happened lately though, maybe a month ago. Does all this sound ok?

Thanks everyone!
Kristin

[*Ali*]

Mine never drained both sides on a regular basis. It was always just a bit on the second side. If he is stopping of his own accord then yes I'm sure he is getting enough.

They tend to take longer to eat at night just because they are sleepy and relaxed. Supply is generally less in the evening and peaks again around 4am.