10 mth old A times

[Jmb2008]

My dd2 is 10.5 mths and for a good mth I've been guessing on her A times.  No idea as they seem to vary so much ~3-5 hrs. And it's really becoming a problem right now as I am trying to get her falling asleep in the crib. Again.  Third try since the summer, travel and sickness have been working against me.

We are about a week in, And I've been relatively successful, but inconsistent as well because some naps don't work and I haven't made her resettle in the crib at night if its not time to feed. Still patting/ssh as she seems to still need to be touched to settle.  She seems to be ok with the idea and settles beautifully about half the time.  The rest is a gong show.  Nights are generally better than naps.  I really believe the problem is not getting the timing right.  Can't figure out if she's OT or UT. 

She's usually awake about 7:15 but her mornings have been getting later.  I'm scared of her getting really OT as she's getting maybe an hour of naps in.  I try to keep her day to 12 hrs but if she's had two naps and the second one is too late she won't go to sleep. Relatively happy in the crib.  The day isn't long enough.  So I'm sure we're in the middle of a 2-1 mess as well.

I just don't know where to start with this.  I want to keep moving forward with the sleep training and get her out of my bed but am getting so frustrated.  She's up often at night too.   


Not sure what to show you.  Here's this past thurs.  what I would consider a good day/night right now

Awake 7:50
R@8:15, 11:00?

S tried a nap. in crib 11:20-11:55. Mostly happy.  Upset when laying down.  Gave up

Lunch, bath

S in crib 1:15, settled beautifully, -1:57
Continued sleeping while nursing L@2:00-3:00

S 7:22 with dh.  Miserable for awhile before he finally put her to sleep.  I was at an appt.  should've told him to put her to sleep by 7.
L@8:25, c8:42-12:00
R@12:00, c12:13-3:51
L@3:53,fell asleep in chair?, c4:09 -5:42
Took To bed


And Saturday :
Awake 7:04

S in crib 11:27 settled nicely 11:28-11:58

S wouldnt settle in crib so nursed to sleep, in crib 4:00? woke at 4:35 to try to protect bedtime

L@7:30
S in crib 8:00, settled 8:20, helped first hr with patting as needed, -12:10
R@12:12, c12:21-1:37
Mess
C2:58-? Not long




So far today (sun)
Awake 7:45

S happy playing.  Tried to lay down at 12:30, not happy.  Left room and fed her as hadn't nursed since 8:45?, but had lunch at 11:30.  Trouble keeping eyes open.  Tried in crib again, full out screaming mad on back, won't do anything.  Left room to calm down. Settled 1:25 in my arms.
In crib 1:35-patting through stirring at 30 min mark, still sleeping!

So this will be a one nap day and the goal will be to put her to bed at 7:15

[jessmum46]

A few things jump out at me.  First, the A time you tried to put her down first thing was wildly different those 3 days - 3h50, 4h20, 4h45.  That will make it really really hard to spot any sort of a pattern forming so I would suggest that you lay her down at the same A time each day for a good few days in a row to see what happens. Given she settled best on the middle day (though did a 30 min nap which is typically OT) I would probably go for laying her down around 4h15 for now.  It may also be worth considering waking her at the same time each morning to start her day but I understand you may not be keen on that.

Secondly - inconsistency.  You know it but you can't pat for some naps and nurse to sleep for others and expect your sleep training to progress quickly.  I think you need to really commit to seeing your chosen sleep training method through for all naps and night wakings (apart from feed wakings if she still needs them....she may not at her age) and accept with that comes OT.  If she doesn't settle for a nap within about 45 mins, get her up, have a bit of A time, and then try again.  Night wakings and BT then you do it as long as it takes. 

Third - are you patting her all the way to sleep?  I think if you want her to be a truly independent sleeper you will need to be more hands off.  No issue patting to calm her but she needs to do the work of getting drowsy and falling asleep by herself.  Would you consider PUPD instead? 

[Jmb2008]

Thank you

I would like her wake up to be consistent 7/7:15, it's just been sneaking later some days because of late bedtimes and I'm so tired I hate waking to wake her

I decided yesterday to try 4 hrs. It went beautifully.  Today it was a disaster.  I fed her to see if that's what the problem was but it made it worse, and not convinced it was the problem.  She was a bit miserable earlier this morning and the lat few nights have been brutal. Wondering if she's teething.  Can see lines on her top gums but they're not white.  I'll keep that up for a few more days then

Oh consistency.  I started out so good and then let it slide. Ugh.  Now that I know she can do it I hate making her scream again when it's not going well.  And if dh puts her to bed when im out with dd1 he holds her to sleep.  Questioning whether she's teething really ruins my strength to hold out through the screaming.  Mad I'm ok with, but if I suspect something else I'm no good.


I've kind of done a combination of patting and pupd.  When I started I just kept laying her down with sleepy phrase, patting crib and telling her to lay down, and was doing whatever I could to calm her be it shh/pat, touching her, rubbing back, putting myself over the edge of the crib to put my face next to her.   There was a couple naps I tried for 30 min, left, and she settled the second time

Now it goes one of two ways, she goes down beautifully, I ssh/pat as I lay her down and she just settles to sleep, or the odd time at night she's played for a bit then I've laid her down and she's gone nice.   Or, all goes to pot.  Which usually happens at nap time. 

I'll try to back off on the patting and see how that goes. I thought it wasn't a prop though?


Mon
Awake 7:17
L@7:20

Out
R@11:25
Screamed all the way home

S. r@12:15, c12:27-1:03?
R@.   -1:40 happy

S 7:00 with dh, c?
C 7:38?-9:49
L@9:51, c10:02-11:38? Screaming, no settling
L@11:50, c12:05-12:50
To bed


Tues
Awake 6:55
L@6:55

S in crib 10:57, settled 10:58, w2s fail at 11:26, nursed to sleep, -11:55?

R@4:45? To sleep -4:55

L@7:14
S in crib 7:30, settled standing with head on my shoulder.  Down easy, settled 7:34, help at 8:18, -9:11
L@9:13, c9:26-11:30?
To bed

Wed
Awake 7:20

S in crib 11:20, not happy
L@11:25, in crib, even madder
L@11:37 to sleep.

[Jmb2008]

Oh, I don't have all my feeds recorded.  So ignore that

[Jmb2008]

Oh, and I think she's eating way too much at nighttime.  The last couple nights when I've tried to settle without feeding though I've gotten full out mad arching back.  But maybe teething?  I don't know.  Going to try to send dh in tonight if she wakes at that point again.

[Jmb2008]

Asleep about 7:30 last night, nursing.  I was out with dd1 and she was too tired when I got home. Just wanted to get her to sleep. Was quite unsettled.

Thurs
Awake 6:56
Breakfast
R@9:45
Snack

S light out @11, didnt seem ready, read more stories
crib 11:08, screaming -11:38
Falling asleep on my lap downstairs
C11:50, screaming -12:05
Lunch, zoning out in highchair
C12:26, not happy about it, settled 12:28


So normally if she wakes 30-40 min in I'll nurse her to get a decent nap out of her.  Especially with trying for one nap.  Bad idea?

[Jmb2008]

Ok, so here's today. She actually stayed for just over an hour for her nap! And bedtime was beautiful.  But scared for tonight.  Gave her tylenol before bed.  Not sure if the miserable points today were tired or teething.

Awake 6:56

R@9:45

S light out @11, didnt seem ready, read more stories
crib 11:08, screaming -11:38
Falling asleep on my lap downstairs
C11:50, screaming -12:05
Lunch, zoning out in highchair
C12:26, not happy about it, settled 12:28-1:34

L@1:40, fell asleep, woke at 2:00

L@3:52, just miserable, comfort sucking?

R@5:48

S in crib 7:10, settled beautifully 7:14, not much shhh/pat

[Jmb2008]

And yesterday:

Fri
Awake 7:40

Out
R@10:10

S 11:10-11:40 carseat

L@2:00

S fail. In crib 3:45-4:00.  Not tired?
Happy till 4:45?  Waited for dh to come home instead of nursing for 10 min. Probably should've tried at 4:30 but wasn't possible with dd1. 2 nap days are always horrible as the second needs to be like 10 min to not mess with bedtime

S 5:06-5:15 with dh.  Crashed hard. Not happy being woken!

R@5:40

Tylenol
S in crib 7:30, hard time settling, crying, settled 7:42-8:17
Settled, c8:26-11:30
L@11:32, c11:42-2:23
R@2:26, c2:48-?

And today so far:

Sat
Awake 6:55?
L@6:55 fell asleep for a few min?


R@11:08? Trying to fall asleep
C 11:19-11:49 screaming
Break, trying to fall asleep in my arms
C 12:12 sad cry, making noise, then settled 12:14-


So I've been fairly consistent since tues with naps at 4 hrs (except yesterday was out as preschool day, and today was more 4hr15 because I was having some extra sleep) and it is not getting easier.  I know the overall lack of short sleep is affecting how long she can last too.  So 4hrs was good tues but not since then, yesterday fell asleep at 3.5 in the carseat.  Bedtime ( except for wed) she's settled in the crib fairly well, but I think I need to get her to bed a little earlier.  Really hit that 12 hr mark.

Nights are still bad.  Last night I was able to settle her in my arms after her first waking (30 min) no mad screaming, and went back down till 11:30.  Which was almost 6 hrs between feeds!  But then was up at 2:30. Fed her even though she probably was hungry, and then didn't stay long.

Do I go forward or back for naps?  What do I do?

I'm tying to work on nights too, bring in consistency there.  Let her scream in the crib thurs night at her first wake up
 for 30 min? Because she was bucking in my arms anyways.  But then dd1 wasn't going to sleep and dh was questioning if she was in pain from teething.  I don't know.  All I know is she wanted a boob.  But was hoping progress from naps/bedtime would help with the night without too much drastic intervention.


Things seemed to work a lot better when we did this before. She won't even lay down on her own anymore, and is pushing my hands away if I try and comfort her when she is mad screaming.  I know she wants to be held.  I just feel like all this screaming isn't amounting to much.  And am so frustrated.  I know you said 45 for naps before taking a break, but I can only handle 30.  And the moment she starts her mad cry I know she's not going to settle that round and I'm in for the 30.

Just super frustrated.  She'll be 11 mths in a week and I know she can do this!

[jessmum46]

Hi, and sorry not to get back to you for a while.  Having my own sleep woes over here....

Patting can definitely become a prop if you continue to do it all the way to sleep.  It's an easy prop to wean, as you can reduce the time you do it, do it more gently etc to get LO used to doing it independently, but yes it can still be a prop if LO needs it every time. 

When you write 'c' does it mean chair or crib?

You could make your EASY 'easier' for us to read by just writing what time feeds happened rather than which side etc, and also how long naps lasted, something like:
E 7am
A (4h)
S 11am-12.30pm
E 12.40 etc etc

Monday she had a 45 minute nap all day?  Super duper OT by bedtime I'm guessing, I'd have had her down for probably 5/5.30pm if you couldn't get another nap.  Are you only aiming for one nap?  I don't think she's ready looking at what you've posted.....she seems pretty OT......I would go back to aiming for a two nap routine for now until she is better rested and then see where things stand.

Sorry to be a pain but could you post your EASY a little more clearly (my tired brain just can't work out what's going on) and I'll see if I can help you with a plan to get back on track.

[Jmb2008]

Thank you

Was just in the middle of trying 3.5 hr A time, then 4 hr A time and wanted to get a few days in. Have definitely been patting less. She is way more settled going down for naps. Mostly patting during the night.  Have improved the day but Have lost some ground on falling to sleep in the crib in favour of getting the timing figured out.  And now naps are easier but bedtime is a mess.

Sorry, 'c' means crib

So here we are:

Sun. Nov 23
Awake 6:45
A 3hr48

S fighting, then falling asleep on shoulder, c10:25, sad cry, doorbell
Singing, falling asleep, c10:31, sad cry, settled 10:33-10:49 Dog barking
R@10:51 eyes open not going to sleep

A 3hr40

E 2:23.  Couldn't keep awake
S C2:35-3:11.  40 min

A 4 hr33

R@7:10 falling asleep
S in crib 7:18, sad tired cry.  Picked up, calmed, asleep (7:44)c7:50
R@9:23,c9:35
L@11:39, c11:51  -?


Mon
Awake 7:33
A 3hr35, break, 4hr7
S in crib 11:05, settled 11:08-11:09
Took a Break, asleep in arms (11:40) c11:44 crying, settled -12:02.   
A ?
S?

L@7:43 to sleep eventually.  (Closed eyes 8:00)c8:14-10:57
R@10:58, c11:08-12:30?


Tues
Awake 6:38
A 3hr27
S in crib 10:05, little fuss, settled  -10:39
A 4hr4
S settled quickly in my arms (2:43) c2:48-3:35

R@7:42? Eventually to sleep
Sleeping(7:50)c8:02-11:06
L@11:08,c11:20-12:?
L@. I Fell asleep   , c1:30
Resettled, c1:40-3:30?


Wed
Awake 6:43
A 3 hr28
S in crib 10:11 eyes were closed no fuss -10:54
A 4hr6
S lights out 2:54, eyes closed little fuss 3:00, c3:04-3:32 happy

(Ready7:20?) I was out

S wouldn't settle, hungry?
R@7:35 to sleep , c7:48, fuss but settled, -8:32
Settled, c8:38
L@9:55, c10:05
R@12:45, fell asleep, c1:31-?

Thurs
Awake 6:13
A 3hr37
S in crib 9:49, no fuss, settled 9:50-10:18 tired
A 3hr55
S lights out 2:13, eyes closed 2:14, in crib 2:15-2:47? Tired
A

S in crib 7:30, happy, laying down, trying to settle?  In bed too late I think.
8:02 in my arms, screaming
L@8:17-8:28, fussing, settled, in crib 8:30, crying, settled -11:53
R@11:55, c12:04-12:18, screaming, arching back
R@12:28,unsettled, c12:50-


So mornings keep getting earlier and the day keeps shifting back.  Naps have been super easy the past few days but short.  And bedtime a mess.  So where should I go from here?

Now that I seem to have nice times for naps I'll keep working on having her fall asleep in crib. Should 2nd nap maybe be a little sooner?   But bedtime I don't know what to do with.  That was the easy part before and I'll keep trying to fix that.

Hope I made my EASY clearer.  Sorry. I'll keep the E out as its often a mess

Again, not sick but I can see evidence of top teeth moving, and I think she's wanting to walk.  So not sure how much of a part all that is playing

[jessmum46]

I do think she looks incredibly overtired hun.  I think you are keeping her up way too long after some super-short naps and she is just getting into an OT spiral.  I would suggest you stick with 3.5h A time first thing as she seems to have settled pretty well for you on that the last few days, but then given you are only getting a 30-35 min nap I would be pulling her next A time right back to something more like 3h or so.  She's probably going down so easily for the second nap at the moment because she's exhausted.  After 2 super-short naps I would try getting her down to bed much earlier too. 

What do you think?

[Jmb2008]

I know more sleep is needed, just not sure how much.  I will try pushing that 2nd nap earlier and try to be consistent with earlier bedtime (12 hr day) for a few days and see what happens. 

It's hard because really she's pretty much always happy and hard to see tired signs until apparently its way too late. 

Thanks

[jessmum46]

Let us know how you get on x

[Jmb2008]

Sorry, 'c' means crib
I put in the A times as occurring from awake to when she closed her eyes


Here's the past week.

Sat
Awake7:12?
A 3h30

S in crib 10:40, getting up, crying, settled 10:42?43? -11:21
A 4 hr
S lights out 3:12, c3:15, not going to settle, too tired
Eyes closed, 3:21, c3:25-4:18
A 3 hr25

S closed eyes 7:43   W/ dh
Resettled, c.      -12:28
L@12:30, c12:39
L@2:42, fell asleep, c3:55-5:30?


Sun
Awake (7:07 moving around, sucking). 7:27
A 3 hr21
S in crib 10:46, getting up, crying, settled 10:48-11:36?
A. 3 hr 49
S lights out 3:12, fighting me, calmed, eyes closed 3:24, c3:28- 4:02

A 3 hr 43

S 7:45 w/ dh
Resettled C. 8:26-9:42
L@9:44, c9:54
L@11:04-11:30 unsettled.  C11:32-
Motrin. Settled.  C12:25-


Mon
Awake 7:40
A 3 hr39
S in crib 11:17, little fighting, settled 11:19-12:15
A tried 3 hr30
S 3:45? Refusing to nap
A 5 hr 5
S with dh, 5:20-5:30 to get through to bedtime. Apparently a bad idea.

R@7:50? Not ready to sleep
Happy playing
R@9:30 to sleep. (A4 hrs)
Resettled, c9:52- 12:06?
L@12:08?, i fell asleep, c1:08-


Tues
Awake 7:25
A.  3 hr5.  Really short night so shortened a time
S lights out 10:28, c10:30 no fuss, settled, -11:12
A. 3 hr36
S 2:48-3:52 carseat
A. 4hr17
S lights out 7:52, mostly calm, trouble settling, too tired
Settled 8:07, c8:12-9:20 with help
L@9:23, c9:37-10:38
Medicine, settled, c10:47-moving a lot, left at 12:00, -1:28
R@1:30, fell asleep, c2:55-3:52


Wed
Awake 7:33
A3hr34

S in crib 11:07, settled, -12:07

A. 3 hr37
S lights out 3:44, happy, sitting up and clapping in my arms while I sang
No nap

Happy
(A. 6hr30)
R@6:32, no keeping her awake, c6:47-7:13
R@7:15, c7:30-
R@7:43, c8:10-                                Keeps rubbing eyes
L@11:00, c11:10-11:27
Resettled, c11:29 wanting down,


Thurs
L@6:15
Awake 7:38
A. 3hr34
S 11:12.  No.  Wide awake
(A 4hr50)
S 12:28 no.  Happy, fussing. Asked 'Go play' and I get a sound of agreement. 'Nap' and she is silent.  Lol

Started fussing 1:12
L@1:13 trying to sleep
(A 4hrs48)
S lights out 1:23, c1:26, settled -2:11
A.  5hr31
S lights out 7:10
R@7:42 to sleep, c8:00-11:03
L@11:05, c11:15-12:15
L@12:17, c12:29-?

Fri
Awake 7:30
A.  1hr56
S 9:26?-10:00.  Carseat
A.  5hr10.  Too long.
Out
S 3:10-4:10 carseat
A 4hr20
R@8:30, c8:44-9:11
R@9:15,c9:27
Medicine
R@9:56, c10:07-1:10
L@1:13, c1:23-4:00


Sat
Awake 7:30
A. 3hr36
S eyes closed 11:05, c11:06, patted 1 min, -11:37
Dh and I went to a movie. Happy playing with grandparents until she saw me. 
A 4hr45
S.  L@4:22 to sleep.  -4:40
A 3hr7
S.  R@7:47 to sleep
L@10:19, c10:30-12?


Sun
Awake 7:40 (took. 10 min to wake her)
So sad/tired
A 3hr5
S. 10:45?-12:15.  Carseat
Out for a massage. Started fussing when I got back.
L@4:44 to sleep-5:00

A?
She's currently sucking to sleep.  Tried at 7:30. Not ready.


She started taking a few steps yesterday so that's on the go. And those teeth still aren't cutting through! Ugh

Unless she refuses to sleep (too happy) she goes down beautifully for naps
Bedtime is a mess.

[jessmum46]

Do you have a sense of whether she has always been low/average/high sleep needs?  When did she do the 3-2?

I'm struggling to see a pattern if I'm honest, your first A time has varied from 1h56 to 4h50 so it's almost impossible to make any sort of guess at what she can really cope with.  The one thing I do still see a lot of is super-long A times after short naps....I suspect a lot of the time when she seems happy and not wanting to settle she probably has a second wind rather than not being tired.  Hugs, it can be tough at this age and I'm sure you are hitting the 2-1, it's just she is struggling with short naps. 

My suggestions would be:

Stick with a consistent first A time regardless of night length.  I think we were looking at around 4h-4h15 based on your first post?
Shorten her A time after a short nap.
Do not be scared of early bedtime.  Monday was a great example of where EBT could have been used - she could have gone down for the night at 5.30pm instead of trying to get her to normal BT with a tiny 10 minute nap.
Consider how much total A time she has in the day.  Average sleep needs at this age would be around 14h in 24h so total A time should be around 10h, maybe 10.5h if she is lower sleep needs.  So for example on Saturday she had 3h36 first A and 4h45 second A = 8h21.  So given both naps were short I would have aimed for a bedtime around 2h after waking from her second nap.  Instead she had 3h and was very tired.

what do you think?