help with 8 month old who won't settle but doesnt like to be picked up

[tashgordon]

Hi
We have done shush pat and then PU/PD with our now 8 month old son.
With shush pat he didn't like to be picked up unless really upset and the same with PU/PD.

He is already cruising so now pulls himself to standing in cot. We pick him up and put him back down.
Eventually he stops getting up but at this point will often start to cry, not his mantra cry but not a really distressed cry.

We then say sleepytime, or shush(I know Tracey says not to but it seems to help sometimes), sometimes we put a hand on his back but sometimes it seems like you need to get really close to him in cot for him to settle or to hold his hand.

I am concerned that his continued NW are in part due to how we are settling him, i.e. that we are helping too much and then he needs us in the middle of the night to settle. What do you think???

He was waking a couple of times at variable times of the night and then waking fairly early 5-6am and it is very hard to get him back to sleep at this point.

Unfortunately he has been teething for the last 2 weeks (3 through) and for the last week has had a bad cough and cold and so NW worse (Friday night every 30-60min).

My experience with my first son was once he was able to settle himself he woke less when ill and teething so it seems really important to help him learn. Or do I just have to wait and he needs more time?

In terms of temperament my baby is in many ways text book but in terms of sleep I think he is more spirited or possibly touchy - we had to swaddle him until about 5 months adn getting him into a cot took a lot of persuasion.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated as I don't want to be accidental parenting and I would love more sleep!

Thanks
Tash

[Kellyjs]

Hi tash,

Would you mind posting your easy for us so we can take a look? ((Hugs)) in the meantime. 8mo was a really yucky time for sleep in this house.

Don't want to offer much advice until we can see what the day looks like. If there's teething and he's cruising already, there's obviously a lot of developmental stuff going on which never helps much!

Look forward to hearing from you x

[tashgordon]

Hi

It is a bit variable depending on the night but....

5.30-6.30 E wakes and has a breast feed (big one)
7am E solids
9am S - normally for an hour occasionally an hour and half
10-10.30am E E breastfeed - very small if we are out or big brother around as gets too distracted
11.45 solids
1 - 1.30pm S goes down for nap generally 3hrs after waking and sleeps for 1hr 10min upto 2 hours
2.30-3pm E breastfeed - very small if we are out or big brother around as gets too distracted
5pm solids
6pm bath, breastfeed biig one, stories and bed
7pmor sometimes 10 min before asleep

He sometimes sleeps through his naps but often wakes after a sleep cycle and needs to be settled, this can be just a touch or sometimes takes upto 10 min adn very occasionally is much longer.

Due to big brother being at school nap times are a bit stuck as he cant go down before 9am or just after and he has to be awake by 3.10.

thanks for your help.
Last night he only had 2 brief wakings at 9.30pm adn 1.30am and woke at 5.30 which is alto better then friday night when he woke every 30-60min!!!
T

[Kellyjs]

Waking every 30-60mins in this house usually means teething or discomfort hun. Any of that going on?

I would tweak your routine if it wasn't for your schools runs tbh. I think those long naps are taking away from his night sleep, but perhaps you're happy with a 5.30am wu? Some are, I personally hate them! 

Initially I would also cap both naps to 1.5hrs max at this age. Is there any way you can get him to bed a little earlier? I would work on a max of 12.5 hrsa day from wu in the morning if you can.

I don't think there's much scope for moving it around if you need to leave the house at 3.15pm. Hopefully just capping those naps and bringing BT slightly earlier might help a little? Hth x

[tashgordon]

Thanks

I hate 5.30 wu too!!!

Most days his naps are both an hour or one is an hour and half, in fact I think he might sleep better if one is an hour and half.

Will try to ensure he doesnt get any longer naps.

Maybe I need to try harder to get him back to sleep at 5.30am?

What do you think about how I get him to sleep settle with less intervention and if this is relevant in terms of nw?
We have never managed to get him to sleep without one of us in the room.

I am trying to do more gentle talking e.g. "sleepytime" instead of hand on him with the aim to get him falling asleep independently but sometimes he won't settle unless we are holding his hand or kissing him or hand on him especially when he wakes during naps or at night. Do you think this is part of the cause of NW.

The night when he woke every 30-60min he had a tooth coming through and a nasty cold, fortunately that isn't our norm!

Thanks for the support
T

[Kellyjs]

Ahh that might the issue then. Does he need you to fall asleep for naps and BT too? I'll be back in mo for a link for you. I think a gradual withdrawal might be the way to go, ignore the bit about wi/wo x

Walk In/Walk Out vs. The Gradual Withdrawal Method (HOW TO CHOOSE)

P.s sorry, I should've asked before about IS! Might have gotten there quicker 

[tashgordon]

Sorry for very slow reply back, your last post was really helpful and means i now know the term to search for for more info. Gradual withdrawal has helped and when there isnt teething or illness we get some pretty good nights though still can't leave the room before he falls asleep but hopefully will get there!!!

Also been working on early mornings by not taking him into bed for his first feed so now waking 5.45 or 6am which is an improvement (though often wakes once before but settles quite quickly)

I was wondering if his morning wake up time is a bit variable (within 30min) do I then vary all the nap times or the first activity time?

thanks
tash

[Kellyjs]

Don't worry hun, I usually think no news is good news!

That's amazing news, go you. Just keep working at it and I'm sure there will be a day when you can leave him to it!

Those mornings are a massive improvement. Now he's very near an independent sleeper we could take a look at your routine again? This is an age when things can go a little haywire with wonder weeks and a sleep regression, but EW can signal that first morning nap might be a touch too early. Want to post what the last couple of days looked like and we can see if a tweak is in order?

In answer to your question, personally I didn't alter the A times if the wu was only around 30mins as I started to go towards set naps at this age but it isn't for all. They can start to handle slightly longer timings here and there without OT settling in as rapidly as it does when they're younger.  I always found if I did do then BT was earlier and it spiralled into new timings ie 5.30am WU's rather than 6am! Obviously a massive difference    . But mine always did do well with a longer first A so an extra 15mins or so didn't make much difference.

[tashgordon]

HI

After reading this:
Questions about starting Gradual Withdrawal Sleep Training
Questions about starting Gradual Withdrawal Sleep Training

I realised I should stop putting him down when he stood up adn he is actually starting to go to sleep at naps adn bedtimes without standing up, still some crying - which often sounds quite frustrated. but he generally settles with shusshing or sleppytime, occasionallly needs a hand on back but sometimes that makes things worse. So feel like I am def moving towards independent sleep.

Early mornings not great though. I think it felt they had improved as we went through a 4.30am stretch in early Jan (which is what stopped me feeding him in the bed in the end!!) Having said that minimal NW at present. If he wakes before 5.30am I can generally get him back to sleep but from 5.30am he seems bright eyed adn resistent to sleep (also he is in with big brother who he is more likely to wake at this point)

current EASY

E 5.30am breastfeed (with lights on!)
E 6.30am solids
S 9am (though if woke at 6am this shifts to 9.30am and actually due to school run often more like 9.15)
A 10am (wakes after an hour now)and E snack (rarely breasfeeds in day now)
E12 lunch
S1.45 (generally I put him down 3h15m or 3h30min after waking and sleeps 1hr or 1hr10m)
E snack adn A from about 3pm
E 5pm dinner
6pm bath etc
7pm asleep

as I said before abit stuck due to school pickups, need to leave house by 3.20 at latest

thanks
tash

[Kellyjs]

That's great hun, the progress is amazing.

What I've noticed is that those naps are getting shorter aren't they since you posted your last easy. And that's with an increase in the second A.

I know you're limited with the school run, but I'd still look at pushing back that first A by 15mins to discourage the EW then maybe cap the nap at 45mins. This will still give you the same wu time. Then keep the second A as is and hope for a slightly longer nap than you've been getting. It may mean you have to wake him for the school run at 3.20pm.

So, in short I think you're heading for the 2-1. That's not saying he's ready for one nap yet at all, but if you read this link it'll explain it better than I can x

From 2 to 1 nap transition (10-12m and older)

P,s I know the link says 10-12mo but some hit this sooner than others.. Mine did!

[tashgordon]

HIya
I started shifting stuff around and have ended up with some earlier mornings and also some confusion now about how to shift things if he is getting up earlier.
It was 5.15 today adn 5.12 yesterday!!!

I put him down for his am nap aiming for 4 hrs AT, definitely harder to get him to go to sleep then when he has 3hr 45min AT. I woke him after an hour (maybe I should have woken him earlier but felt scared to for some reason). Have just put him down aiming for a AT of 3.15 as wanted him to have time for at least an hour before school pick up, also a bit difficult and went down after 3hr 25min

So today so far
5.17 Woke adn fed
9.25 - 10.30 nap
1.55pm down for nap adn I will wake by 3pm

If I could get him back to 5.30 then would the following seem like a reasonable plan:
9.30 - 10.15 nap
1.45 - hopefully 3.10 (or 3.15 if I am pushing it) assuming he sleeps for longer then an hour.

If I cant get him to shift his wake ups am a bit scared of going over 4hrs with AT as worried he will be OT - not that he acts it more that his nap is disturbed and difficult to get him down.

thanks
tash

[Kellyjs]

I'm wondering if a little OT has set in hun? What time to you do BT? With shortening that first nap, it may be that he's ready for BT a little earlier. Especially if the day is creeping towards 14 hrs. I would aim for 13hrs max especially as it's really early days with the transition process. Any chance you could do a couple of EBT to see if he catches up? Eta- perhaps around 6pm?

I wouldn't increase over 4hrs A either, especially as you're capping the nap but rather look at decreasing the last A to 3hrs or so. Is that doable with family life? I don't think it's that first nap that's causing the EW. We just need to find exactly what it is! X

[tashgordon]

Hi
When I have done EBT he just seems to wake up earlier.
Should I stop capping his nap?
Its almost impossible to cap the last A to 3hrs as that would mean him waking up at 4pm adn school pick up is 3.30pm  Also when he has slept later on an fternoon he is often really hard to put down.

what do you think about my suggested times?

thanks

[Kellyjs]

Suggested times look good hun, but I would do BT at 6.30pm if he's waking at 5.30am or else the day gets a little too long. You could let him sleep for an hour for that first nap, it's just that second one may get a little shorter as the A time might not be enough before the school run.

It the meantime, to check to see if he is OT you could try it? If it doesn't work, I'd go back to capping that first nap to make sure he gets a longer one in the afternoon x

[tashgordon]

HI
thanks
he woke up at 4am this morning, got him back to sleep till 5.30, so have let him have an hour, as no school run today.
how long should I leave teh next AT if I can be more flexible?
thanks