Author Topic: 11 week old nap and now nighttime sleep issues!  (Read 7127 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline sparklewings1984

  • BW Aficionado
  • ***
  • Showing Appreciation 3
  • Posts: 119
  • Location:
11 week old nap and now nighttime sleep issues!
« on: December 13, 2014, 12:00:07 pm »
Please help! My DS will not nap and it has resulted in a very OT baby.

He is  11 weeks old, exclusively bf, now nearly 13lb and a touchy baby, very easily overstimulated. He was 3.5 weeks premature (7lb 5 at birth) and had jaundice for 3 weeks when born, so I'm using his gestational age of 8 weeks for expected A times - he seems to be about 1 hr 15 mins.

I tried to start EASY with him at 5 weeks old, but he then caught a cold that lasted 3 weeks, then had his jabs, and so only just getting back on track. In the mean time, obviously some AP has been implemented.

On top of this, LO has reflux. We tried him on gaviscon at 6 weeks but was making him even worse for sleep because he had more trouble pooping and was constantly squirming to get his gas out. HV advised to stop the Gaviscon and just use manual methods to help, keeping him upright after feeds, his crib was already elevated etc.

In all honestly, the reflux seemed to have almost disappeared. I was still keeping him up for 10-15 mins after a feed, and hardly any sick was coming out of him. He seemed to have his 6 week growth spurt with 2 hourly bf, but continued eating this way after the spurt. I assume the smaller meals were helping his reflux.

So from about 6-10 weeks, he was getting 2-2.5 hourly bfs during the day, and going 4-4.5 hours at night,which seemed to be going fine. The main problem was that from having to keep him upright after his feeds, i began cuddling him after burping...when he was 6 weeks (3 weeks gestational), he would then fall asleep pretty quickly as he had a short A time. I know...AP. Whenever i lay him down 30 mins later  (thinking his reflux would have passed) he then would wake up from not being cuddled any more. I don't think it was the reflux waking him as he wasn't usually being sick at this point, although I guess it could have been some silent reflux.

At night time i was feeding him, burping, then keeping him up on my chest for 30 mins before laying him in his crib and he would be fine. Sleeping well at night, which i know can be common in reflux babies.

Ok...onto the present day. For the last week i have been striving to get him back onto 3 hour EASY. I also think i had a problem with oversupply of milk and fast letdown which i have resolved this week,he is no longer pulling off the breast in a spray of milk choking , and his poos seem much better. He has taken quite well to the move back to 3 hourly feeds, i haven't really had to do anything to stretch out his feeds, couple of times i distracted him by waking round the house if say it had only been 2-2.5 hours since his last feed. However, his reflux is back with a vengeance. I assume because of the bigger less frequent feeds sitting in his tummy.

I also started trying to tackle the daytime sleeping in his cot in the nursery (not where he sleeps at night) as i can get the nursery very dark for the daytime naps but our bedroom is too bright. I had some success but i think the build up of his overtiredness is getting in the way. For example, if i catch him in his very short window, i can usually do his wind down  (swaddle, singing Twinkle twinkle, white noise, closing blinds and then sitting cuddling him upright on my shoulder ), put him in the cot when almost asleep and then i keep my hand on him with pressure on his side to get him through the jolts. He has a very strong startle reflex still so i feel this is necessary. About 50% of the time he makes it through his 20 min transition into deep sleep fine. At this point i leave him alone and close the door. I would say in 99% of the times he then wakes at 30 mins - I think OT has to be the reason.  The times that he doesn't make it past 20 mins I try to settle him in the cot but usually end up having to pick up to calm him, put him back in cot when almost asleep but then he usually cries and will not settle.

If he makes it past 30 mins, he now seems to always wake at the end of the sleep cycle at 45-50 mins and will not resettle. I then get him up, do some A time and then start again with the next cycle of EASY. The problem is that we often run out of A time before his next sleep, so then he ends up being sick from his reflux as it is too soon for him to lie down after eating.  So then he wakes up and gets very OT as the day goes on.

I know the key thing must be for me to try and get his first morning nap right so that he sleeps for the full 1.5 hours and we end up doing EASY instead of  EASAEASY.

The next problem is that he now seems to be waking more in the night. Before EASY, we were putting him to bed about 8.30pm and he typically would go 4-5 hours, bf, go another 4 hours and then from about 5am would start waking every 45 mins (think this is EMW?). Since EASY, he has been OT most evenings, so i have been putting him to bed at 5.30-6.30pm. He then wakes up 45 mins later wanting food because he is often too OT to eat properly before bed. I have been dreamfeeding him when we go to bed at 10pm. He is waking A LOT!

I can post some EASY schedules for the past couple of days if that helps. I am pretty sure it is overtiredness as he gets so worked up. Being a touchy baby i have really dumbed down the stimulation all day for the last 2 days.  It has helped him not get to the OT stage of screaming before i try and get him to sleep,  but not helped the naps lengthen and not helped the nighttime sleep.

How am i best to tackle this? Currently when he wakes at 5am i keep trying to get him resettled in his crib and then he wakes every 45 mins. I have been so tired myself from the poor night sleep that i have fallen back to sleep myself and don't actually know if he goes back to sleep from the  EMWs. I think he possibly sleeps from 5-6ish and then after that waking he is just lying in his crib until i get up  (when he next hunger cries either at 7 or 8am). Should i be staying awake myself to watch his behaviour? Should i just stay the day at 5am one day and see what happens?       

Another thing is that he seems fine to self settle at night now,  when i put him back into his crib he is always drowsy and then gurgles and fidgets and manages to sleep fine.  I feel that this is asmall victory at least!

Ijust need a plan really as i am at a load what to do. Do i need to tackle the reflux again before starting EASY? How do i tackle the OT in the interim to avoid further cementing the AP?

A lot of questions I know, there seem to be so many things that could be the reason that I am unsure in which order to tackle them!
« Last Edit: December 13, 2014, 12:33:48 pm by sparklewings1984 »

Offline sparklewings1984

  • BW Aficionado
  • ***
  • Showing Appreciation 3
  • Posts: 119
  • Location:
Re: 11 week old nap and now nighttime sleep issues!
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2014, 12:46:07 pm »
Oh and he won't take a dummy, tried a few brands over the weeks. The only time he will take it is when he is very OT and I've calmed him down and he is drowsy but still fussing. Then he will sometimes suck for a few mins and stop
 He does comfort suck after some of his feeds but not majorly.

Offline Ima shel Alon

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 204
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 9665
  • Alon was once a tiny baby
  • Location: Germany, far from home
Re: 11 week old nap and now nighttime sleep issues!
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2014, 11:01:32 am »
Hi and welcome to BW!

(((hugs))) hun, it sounds like your LO (and you of course) have been through a lot already.

Tracey always said that pain and discomfort come first, then EASY/routine/ST. A baby in pain can not be sleep trained and we can't even look at his EASY properly because Reflux us effecting so many things in his day, sleep and feeding that we won't know what to change.
IIWY I would go back to your HV, if needed ask for a referral to a pediatrician or a specialist that can help with the Reflux. As far as I know gaviscon is not the only medication for Reflux and there are other things the Dr. can try to help ease the pain.

What I *can* say is that there is no harm to feed a baby this age, especially as he is EBF every 2 or 2.5h, it might be what he needs right now. And you will also not "break" him by using AP. AP is not a bad word and sometimes is the only way to keep our babies sleeping and us sane, yk?
I used EASY from almost the beginning but I also took in what Tracey wrote and what ladies here told me again and again - that every baby is different and that one needs to adjust EASY to work for my baby and my family.
I fed to sleep till DS was weaned from milk feeds, so like 1.5-2 years old, but I knew that this is what is working for him and it was right for us. I am not saying you should do the same but just remember that he is still very young and he HAS been through a lot for his young age and it's ok to not be too rigid about things.
My journey of making 1000 goodies using unrefined sugar: http://1000crumbs.com/




Offline Ima shel Alon

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 204
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 9665
  • Alon was once a tiny baby
  • Location: Germany, far from home
Re: 11 week old nap and now nighttime sleep issues!
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2014, 11:10:22 am »
Also forgot to mention that if he goes to BT for the night at 17:30-18:00 then it's pretty normal for him to wake at 5AM and want to start the day. Perhaps you can think about having a nap at that time and then BT later than that, like at 19 or 20.
My journey of making 1000 goodies using unrefined sugar: http://1000crumbs.com/




Offline sparklewings1984

  • BW Aficionado
  • ***
  • Showing Appreciation 3
  • Posts: 119
  • Location:
Re: 11 week old nap and now nighttime sleep issues!
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2014, 14:01:44 pm »
Thanks for the support and reassurance, I just feel like a bit of a failure when my mum and MIL and various other people say things like "you should be able to get him to sleep and then put him down". The reality is that a lot of the time he wakes when I attempted that!

I am not trying to implement a strict schedule on him, and like you say he has been through a lot, hence delaying trying to start EASY. My only problem is that I literally get nothing done all day as i am constantly holding him.

I take your point that I need to get the reflux sorted before any real sleep training, and for now i will just keep with the EASY routine so that he gets used to the pattern. If i manage to keep him on EASY rather than EASAEASY then the reflux seems less of an issue as it is always about 45 mins after he ate that I lay him down. The problem arises when he only takes a 20/30/45 min nap, and so our next EAS is too short because of his awake time. This is why I think getting the first nap of the day is crucial to avoid getting too out of line from the 2.5-3 hour routine, and avoid his OT.

Do you think for now I should keep trying to get the first nap lengthened in the hope that it works out better for the rest of the day?

And thanks for the tip about the 5am wake up, will push back his bedtime again, but to be honest he was even doing the 5am wake from his 8.30pm bedtime hence my confusion on this!

Offline Ima shel Alon

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 204
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 9665
  • Alon was once a tiny baby
  • Location: Germany, far from home
Re: 11 week old nap and now nighttime sleep issues!
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2014, 17:21:41 pm »
Thanks for the support and reassurance, I just feel like a bit of a failure when my mum and MIL and various other people say things like "you should be able to get him to sleep and then put him down". The reality is that a lot of the time he wakes when I attempted that!
This is too familiar and it makes my blood boil when I hear this and remember how it was the same for me.
People around you will always think they know better than you as they have experience. The fact is that their experience happened many years ago and lots of things have been forgotten. There is no way they remember every difficulty they had and I can already see it about myself, that there are already so many things I forgot - if I wouldn't have forgot them I wouldn't be pg right now, lol!
You and your partner are the people who know you baby best, don't let anyone tell you different or make you insecure.

for now i will just keep with the EASY routine so that he gets used to the pattern.
This is already a lot, yk? And the fact that you are even trying despite the difficulties around with his Reflux show that you are a great mommy!

Do you think for now I should keep trying to get the first nap lengthened in the hope that it works out better for the rest of the day?
That's a good idea but I am not sure how possible it's going to be in reality. You should also not exhaust yourself trying.
What kind of A times is he doing? He should be doing 1:15-1:20h approx. but this is average and often different for babies with Reflux.
My journey of making 1000 goodies using unrefined sugar: http://1000crumbs.com/




Offline sparklewings1984

  • BW Aficionado
  • ***
  • Showing Appreciation 3
  • Posts: 119
  • Location:
Re: 11 week old nap and now nighttime sleep issues!
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2014, 19:53:48 pm »
You are so kind and such great support on this board,  I'm glad I found it.

He is doing 1hr 15 A time, I usually start his wind down after about 1 hour, I take him upstairs at the first yawn.

I think I will try to persevere with the first nap then for now and tackling his reflux. To work on the first nap, should i be making sure I am waking him around the desired WU time? I'm aiming for 7-7 in the long term, so if I go with any time he is awake between 6.30 and 7.30 as his WU is that a good start? If he isn't awake by 7.30am do i wake him?

Looking forward to chatting through the highs and lows as we progress! Congrats on your latest pregnancy,  when are you due? x 

Offline ZacsMumme

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 425
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 23962
  • You complete me
  • Location: NZ
    • Tomi & Roo Boutique
Re: 11 week old nap and now nighttime sleep issues!
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2014, 02:25:47 am »
His A times look fine. Often reflux babies seem to do a bit more A time, probably because they need to be quite tired to sleep as they're constantly in a bit of discomfort.

Can I so how he wakes from naps at 30 mins? Grumbling, cooing or crying, or screaming? - sometimes this can help identify what's the cause for the waking.

Forgive me if I have missed this but is your LO currently on any meds for reflux?
You mention a fast LD, I had this for my first reflux baby too and it really doesn't help. If you can feed in a reclined position, or with your baby upright sitting more then that may help. I also expressed into a towel when my LD came then popped DS back on once it slowed otherwise he ended up full of gas and wind.

Hugs, it's a tough age
***Sara***
https://www.facebook.com/tomiandroo


DS1 - Our sensitive soul. Silent reflux.

DS2 Our cheeky chipmunk. Reflux, MSPI.

Offline sparklewings1984

  • BW Aficionado
  • ***
  • Showing Appreciation 3
  • Posts: 119
  • Location:
Re: 11 week old nap and now nighttime sleep issues!
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2014, 10:58:38 am »
Hi,

When he wakes at 30 mins it is often that he had jolted awake and you could see that he tried to resettle himself because he squirms for 15 seconds, stops, and then squirms again and starts crying. He generally stops crying once I put a hand on him and  shush, but then he usually opens his eyes and won't go back to sleep. He then starts crying more so I pick him up to try and resettle.  A few times he ends up falling asleep on me at this point  (must be OT?), other times he settles but is then wide awake  (UT?). He doesn't seem in pain, more like he is frustrated that he can't sleep!

He isn't on meds atm, but i have baby gaviscon that i may start him on again next week after i see the  HV on  Monday.

I'm  now confused though.... yesterday we had a lot of 45 min naps,  he had about 4.5 hours daytime sleep in total which is a good amount for him. He had a big bf at  6.30pm and was due to sleep at 7.15pm ish at the end of his A time. Because he had been grouchy all afternoon i was planning on keeping him up for another nap at 7.15pm and then put him to bed properly after his next waking and  top up. He seemed to have different ideas, he started screaming and burrowing into my armpit at 7.15pm (OT) so took him upstairs and didn't do BT routine, just swaddled and rocked until he stopped screaming and then into crib drowsy but awake.  By  8pm he was asleep. He slept until 1am! Quick feed and change and then back to sleep til 4am, quick feed and back to sleep til 6.55am wake up.

Then this morning  i fed him, got him changed and dressed for the day and then say back in my bedroom with him having a chat. He started to get grumpy and yawned at 8.05am so i swaddled him and he started the 7 mile state so popped him in his crib next to my bed, i got into bed but faced away from him. He was grumbling to himself for 10 mins and then fast asleep! 40 minute wake up with a grumble and i think he might have pooped then  (i was downstairs listening over the monitor at this point). Then he started crying so i went into him and he was wide awake so no resettling. So i think he may have pooped which woke him up.

He is going through his second wonder week, so i think maybe he is now getting over that and has realised he can spend time alone and i will come back to him when he cries. All I know is that it is like having a different baby all of a sudden! He also rolled over from tiny to back on his playmat this morning which i put down to the wonder week.

I'll update with the rest of his progress today later on.

Offline Ima shel Alon

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 204
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 9665
  • Alon was once a tiny baby
  • Location: Germany, far from home
Re: 11 week old nap and now nighttime sleep issues!
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2014, 09:07:19 am »
(must be OT?), other times he settles but is then wide awake  (UT?). He doesn't seem in pain, more like he is frustrated that he can't sleep!
I am not sure it's either of those. Since he is so young it's pretty normal that he is hard to resettle for a nap. I surely never managed, even when DS was older, so my safest bet was to get the A times right.
I'm  now confused though.... yesterday we had a lot of 45 min naps,  he had about 4.5 hours daytime sleep in total which is a good amount for him. He had a big bf at  6.30pm and was due to sleep at 7.15pm ish at the end of his A time. Because he had been grouchy all afternoon i was planning on keeping him up for another nap at 7.15pm and then put him to bed properly after his next waking and  top up. He seemed to have different ideas, he started screaming and burrowing into my armpit at 7.15pm (OT) so took him upstairs and didn't do BT routine, just swaddled and rocked until he stopped screaming and then into crib drowsy but awake.  By  8pm he was asleep. He slept until 1am! Quick feed and change and then back to sleep til 4am, quick feed and back to sleep til 6.55am wake up.
This is a great night! But you shouldn't be confused, it's just that 19-20ish is a good BT time. I personally wouldn't do a CN at that time, then another hour or so A time and only then BT, it's sounds to me like a recipe for OT :D.
My journey of making 1000 goodies using unrefined sugar: http://1000crumbs.com/




Offline sparklewings1984

  • BW Aficionado
  • ***
  • Showing Appreciation 3
  • Posts: 119
  • Location:
Re: 11 week old nap and now nighttime sleep issues!
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2014, 18:04:19 pm »
Hi again, thought I would give an update now it is a few days later....

So after that great night, we then had an even crazier occurrence. The next night he went to bed at 7.45pm,  woke at 1.30am but didn't cry, he settled himself back to sleep with no input from me. He then slept through until needing a feed at 4am! I was delighted!

However, on the back of that i had 2 terrible days of not going down for naps, and CONSTANT cluster feeding for 5 hours each evening and several NWs. I can only assume this is his 3 month growth spurt hitting a bit early? So that ended last night and we seem to be getting back on track - last night he slept 8.15pm - 1.15am and then woke for feeds at 4.30 and 6am. I managed to get him back in his crib from 6.45 - 7.10am and then got him up for the day.

Today has been a bit of a mess as we went out for lunch with friends
 Morning naps I managed to get him settled in his crib from drowsy, but both were only 45 min naps. After not being able to resettle the second one my OH had him in the carrier and got another 1hr of sleep out of him and he didn't seem to want to wake up, but when we moved him into the pram to go out he did wake up.

I now have 3 solid days before Xmas and i want to achieve something before we throw everything off course with our Xmas travelling round the country. I will be working on trying to get him to take all of his naps in his crib, except his late afternoon nap i will take him out in the pram as this is always the most difficult to get him to settle. Do you think this is something reasonable to aim for or should i be working on trying to extend his naps given that they are all 45 minutes?

I find after his 1st nap of the day he is still a happy baby with only 45 mins. After that he wakes up cranky from the start so i know he needs more sleep.

Also as the day goes on i find it harder to pick up on his sleepy cues as he seems to hit OT before he even yawns, whereas in the morning i know i have 3 yawns from him before he gets to the crying stage so I'm usually ready for the  nap before then. I also find it hard to know how much to adjust his A time after all his short naps.

Again, I don't really know where to start! But feel so proud of him self settling for a few of his naps this week, and i feel like he is ready to learn how to sleep better!

Oh one other big change, he absolutely started fighting the swaddle the other night and would not self settle swaddled. So  i unswaddled his hands and he was asleep within 10 minutes! That was the day after he learned to roll over from his tummy, so I think he is developmentally ready for it. I have transitioned him to a sleeping bag and although he is waking a bit more at night, it hasn't disrupted his sleep too badly at all.

I guess my questions are:
1. Are his A times likely to be wrong if ALL of his naps in the crib are 45 mins? He sometimes sleeps longer if i go out with the pram and then leave him sleeping when i get home. A time is about 1hr 20 mins this week. Am I totally wrong with these A times anyway? These are the times he is doing and then taking 45 min naps, if he had a full nap do you think his A time should be longer? He is usually crying by the time I am trying to get him to sleep with OT, but before that point he doesn't give in to the sleep. Sometimes I can get him to quietly cuddle with me, but he just stares into the distance and doesn't go drowsy before the crying stage.
2. What should I work on first? Getting all of his naps in the crib or extending his naps past 45 mins?

I will diligently log his EASY for 3 days to hopefully get a clearer idea of what is happening.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2014, 19:04:49 pm by sparklewings1984 »

Offline Ima shel Alon

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 204
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 9665
  • Alon was once a tiny baby
  • Location: Germany, far from home
Re: 11 week old nap and now nighttime sleep issues!
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2014, 18:41:59 pm »
Also as the day goes on i find it harder to pick up on his sleepy cues as he seems to hit OT before he even yawns, whereas in the morning i know i have 3 yawns from him before he gets to the crying stage so I'm usually ready for the  nap before then. I also find it hard to know how much to adjust his A time after all his short naps.

First of all, congrats on the progress! That's great!

1:20h A time seems about right for his age and if are working now on transitioning him to the crib then I would do one battle at a time, will tackle that first and then tackle A times. It's only a matter of a few days as it seems you are almost there with crib naps so he won't get too OT.
45min naps at this age can still be developmental so I would increase A times very cautiously. I would increase by 10min and hold that for a few days and see if there is any change with naps.

Most parents give a shorter A time than usual after a short nap but some babies, like mine was, need the same length of A time even after a short nap - it's just something you gonna need to try out.
Oh, and if you find sleepy cues get harder to follow later in the day then you can rely more on the clock.
My journey of making 1000 goodies using unrefined sugar: http://1000crumbs.com/




Offline sparklewings1984

  • BW Aficionado
  • ***
  • Showing Appreciation 3
  • Posts: 119
  • Location:
Re: 11 week old nap and now nighttime sleep issues!
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2014, 19:28:45 pm »
Brilliant, thanks for the encouragement, it is keeping me going!

Ok plan for the next 3 days is to try getting him into his crib for all naps and taking an accurate EASY log. Then after Xmas I'll post my findings and we can take it from there.

Have a Happy Christmas! xx

Offline sparklewings1984

  • BW Aficionado
  • ***
  • Showing Appreciation 3
  • Posts: 119
  • Location:
Re: 11 week old nap and now nighttime sleep issues!
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2014, 19:33:26 pm »
Ps, does it seem "normal" that his last A time of the day is significantly longer? The last few days  (when he has self settled and slept at least 5 hours first stretch) he has done 1.5-2 hours A time before bed. This is usually a feed,then 30 mins of chatting, then nappy and bed clothes, second feed and then bedtime lullaby into sleeping bag and a cuddle. All very low key but always a longer A time.

Offline Ima shel Alon

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 204
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 9665
  • Alon was once a tiny baby
  • Location: Germany, far from home
Re: 11 week old nap and now nighttime sleep issues!
« Reply #14 on: December 24, 2014, 09:21:53 am »
There is no normal :D if it works for him then keep on doing it. Some babies need a longer A time in the morning, some need it before BT.

Happy Christmas to you too!
My journey of making 1000 goodies using unrefined sugar: http://1000crumbs.com/