11 week old nap and now nighttime sleep issues!

[sparklewings1984]

Yes I totally understand. Today was a write off. We had a really good night but then his first E time wasn't right for wake up.

Last night he slept from 7.30pm and woke at 12.30am, I fed him. Then he was awake at 2.15am but hadn't cried out so not sure how long he had been awake and he went back to sleep without a feed and self settled. Then he woke at 5am and I fed him.

WU today was 7.15am but he wasn't hungry enough to feed. Tried to feed him at 8.10am and he fell asleep on the boob. I thought we had enough A time left to get him to feed before putting down for a nap but obviously not. Then the next feed and nap blurred into one because of him not being 100% hungry and also being too tired to stay awake and eat again...I got him back in track with a pram sleep of 1.5 hours but then a rushed feed as we were going out with friends, catnap in car seat etc etc.  The day was a bit of a backwards step really but I will be back on track tomorrow.

Can I ask, I am still too scared to not feed him during the night because the timings of his night feedings are still erratic, but sometimes he does only take 8 mins or so bf so not a full feed. Should I be trying to hold off feeding him in the night now, Or at least holding off until at 2am at the earliest if he has feed at 7pm for BT? I have tried df 3 times  (for 4 or 5days each time) and it just resulted in loads of night wakings. Secondly, if he wakes at 5am and feeds and then his WU is at 7-7.30am, should I just feed him straight away even though it isn't 3 hours? Will this potentially lead to a short first nap if he doesn't take a full feed and so will wake up hungry?

[Ima shel Alon]

I wouldn't worry at all about still feeding him at night. IMO it's better to tackle now the increasing A times and then we can think about the NF.
Whether you wait till 2 or not is up to you, I really can't answer that.

I don't think he will take a full feed at 7, right? So maybe it's worth feeding him at 8 and making sure he is not falling asleep on the boob. You can try stroking his cheek to wake him up or even pull the breast away.
If you feed him at 5, you say it lasts about 8min, right? What happens if you pull away your breast after say 2-3min?

[sparklewings1984]

If you feed him at 5, you say it lasts about 8min, right? What happens if you pull away your breast after say 2-3min?

I will try that tonight and let you know! I'll stick with feeding him if he wakes earlier in the night for now. I really do think he can easily go 3-3.5 hours now if i can get full feeds into him during the day. IIm determined to try and make that happen! Then we will see what happens with the night feeds I guess once his daytime feeds are sorted.

Apart from today, I do really feel like I've made progress this week with getting all of his first and second naps in the cot and settled within 2 or 3 mins of crying maximum each time

[Ima shel Alon]

Because you did make a progress! Good on you!

[sparklewings1984]

So he woke at 4am instead of 5am this morn and was ready for a full feed at 7am WU so not been able to test it yet!

I had another breakthrough though, his first nap today after 1hr 35 min A time he slept 40 mins. I knew i couldn't resettle him in the cot but he was still tired and grumpy so he needed more sleep and i managed to get him back to sleep after 15 mins of rocking. Lay him down and he cried 10 mins later but then settled himself and did a 50 min nap by which point I went in to wake him for his next E and he was actually just starting to wake naturally anyway.

First time I have got him back to sleep after a short nap, even though I did APOP I think it is more progress!

[sparklewings1984]

Ok new questions...

For the last few nights LO has had different sleep patterns at night. I have been trying to keep his daytime feeds to 3 hourly compared to our previous 2.5 hourly. Previously he was sleeping 7.30pm then waking at 1/2am and then 4/5am and then constantly waking every sleep cycle until WU at 7am.

Now he has been sleeping 7.30pm to 11.30pm, then waking at 3.30/4am and sleeping through til 7am WU.

So his long stretch had gotten shorter and last night his long stretch was actually his final sleep of the night, 2.30am-7am!

What is going on? I was thinking he wasn't eating enough in the day so was still waking frequently early in the night to fill up and then sleeping longer later in the night? How do I address this when I can't force him to bf for longer in the day! Should I move back to feeding more frequently or stick to 3 hourly and wait for him to realise and eat more?

[sparklewings1984]

We have had a terrible day, I really need some support from you lovely ladies. So last night LO had total night sleep at 10 hours, which is a lot for him as he usually does about 9 hours with his NWs. He had BT 7.45pm and woke at 11.30pm, 2.15am and I fed him both times. Today has gone like this :

WU & E 7.05am
A 7.45am
S 8.30am couldn't keep him awake as he was getting cranky but then only had a 30 min nap. He shouted out rather than crying and I left him 10 mins as he had quietened down. Then he started crying so I went into him. He was wide awake and smiling so I just got him up.
A 9am kept low key in bouncy chair
E 10am was fussing before so thought hungry but then he seemed to hardly eat  (10 mins bf max) and was distracted the whole time
A 10.20am nappy change and wind down
S 10.40am lots of crying was OT by this point. 30 min nap. Tried PU/PD for 30 mins but then thought he might be hungry as didn't eat much earlier
E 11.45am
A 12.10pm
S 12.40pm again OT crying. 30 min nap. Decided to APOP in pram. After 50 mins awake time he did a 45 min nap in the pram and woke at 2.45pm
E 3pm seemed to eat quite a lot but was on and off the boob a lot distracted and wired
A 3.30pm
S 4.10pm OT crying. 30 min nap. Tried to rock him back to sleep. Didn't work. Decided to bf as wanted to fit in a cluster feed before bed and now he has fallen asleep on me exhausted

Where are we going wrong? Could it be that he is ready for longer E times? I can't tell how much he is eating! He still poops an awful lot  (3/4 times a day) so I think he is definitely eating plenty? I'm still confused by his A times as he seemed to be going longer last week when he had less nighttime sleep!

Again I feel like I can't tell when he is hungry, maybe because I was making him boob dumb and feeding him at every cry so I've forgotten what his actual hunger cry sounds like! I'm pretty sure it is exactly like Tracy describes with the initial cough before the crying starts. I just start to panic after his short naps and the need to get his next feed in before his next nap.

Should I try the approach Tracey had in TBWSAYP? If he wakes early then just keep trying PU/PD until his next feed and then get him up for the feed and then keep him awake until the next S time? Eg
E 7am
A 7.30am
S 8.30am and if wakes at 9.15am then PU/PD until 10am then carry on with
E 10am
A 10.30am VERY low key
S 11.30am

Won't LO just be hideously OT before 11.30am???

[Ima shel Alon]

What is going on? I was thinking he wasn't eating enough in the day so was still waking frequently early in the night to fill up and then sleeping longer later in the night? How do I address this when I can't force him to bf for longer in the day! Should I move back to feeding more frequently or stick to 3 hourly and wait for him to realise and eat more?

Sweetie, I am sorry but I can't see the problem. He used to take 2NF and still does, so what is not ok? He is actually sleeping better because now he doesn't wake up every sleep cycle in the early morning. It's still normal for him to feed twice a night at this age if he is BF.

Should I try the approach Tracey had in TBWSAYP? If he wakes early then just keep trying PU/PD until his next feed and then get him up for the feed and then keep him awake until the next S time? Eg

I honestly can't remember her writing something like that. Tracey was a big advocate of looking at your child and he needs, not ignoring them and following a schedule. I agree with you, he WILL be OT.
I don' think you are doing anything wrong WRT his feeds. Just try to space them to 3h if possible, feed even if it's the middle of A time because of a short nap and try not to stress so much about it. I know this is easier said than done and I know it doesn't feel like that, but you are doing fine. Your LO is still very young.

IIWY I would take the next few days to try and tweak the first A time, he is either having too much of it or not enough. I would try one day to give a short A time, so more to follow his sleepy cues and not let him get to 1:35h A time if he seems not to handle it. If he gives you a short nap, then the next day you can offer 1:35h A time and then the next day increase that to 1:45h A time and see if he still gives you an OT nap.

Again I feel like I can't tell when he is hungry

Hon, really, don't worry. If his weight gain is all right then you are doing things right. I NEVER, and I mean never, could recognize any of DS cries. I couldn't tell hungry from tired from bored, nothing. I felt like a failure, but with time, when I let go of the guilt I realized there is nothing wrong with following the clock more. I always listened and looked at him, but with feeds for example I would feed more looking at the clock, with naps as well. It didn't become a schedule (which we in BW don't think is so good) but rather a routine and it didn't become a schedule because I kept on tweaking whenever needed.

[sparklewings1984]

Hi again....a new day and a fresh start!

With regards to the 2 feeds during the night, I wasn't thinking that having 2 feeds was a problem, I was really questioning why he was now waking earlier during the night instead of doing his long stretch first. So he used to wake at say 1am and 4am but is now waking at 11.30pm and 3am. That is what I was thinking is strange and asking do you think it is because he isn't eating enough in the day so is still topping up calories early in the night?

The PU/PD during naps is in a couple of Tracey's example in TBWSAYP. She uses this technique and treats the routine more as a schedule for a couple of days to basically try to get the baby onto the right track before making other adjustments. It seemed to go against the philosophy of the rest of her books but maybe they were extreme examples she was highlighting.

I am determined to really focus on that first A time this week. Does this mean if he wakes early  (say 6am) I should just start the day then and there rather than putting him back to bed  (which would be a 45 min nap in LO's eyes)?

I know I am probably being too harsh on myself but I end up feeling so guilty when he gets OT. I also seem to have no confidence and just constantly doubting everything I am doing! FTM syndrome?!

[Ima shel Alon]

The PU/PD during naps is in a couple of Tracey's example in TBWSAYP. She uses this technique and treats the routine more as a schedule for a couple of days to basically try to get the baby onto the right track before making other adjustments. It seemed to go against the philosophy of the rest of her books but maybe they were extreme examples she was highlighting.

Sorry, I wasn't clear with what I said before. I know what part you are referring to, but the part I can't remember (it's been a while since I read the book) is whether after the PU/PD you start a full A time or a shorter one. We always recommend here on the boards to try a shorter A time so LO doesn't get OT.

Does this mean if he wakes early  (say 6am) I should just start the day then and there rather than putting him back to bed  (which would be a 45 min nap in LO's eyes)?

If he wakes up at 6 and you put him back in his cot, does he fall asleep again for 45min? If yes, then I would do that and try to start the day a bit later than 6, but if he just lies there then I think it would be easier to just start the day then. I know that some mommies leave the baby in cot and count it as 1/2A time or not at all, to me it was always too confusing...

I know I am probably being too harsh on myself but I end up feeling so guilty when he gets OT. I also seem to have no confidence and just constantly doubting everything I am doing! FTM syndrome?!

I can promise you it will get better. I made lots of mistakes and still do and my little guy is healthy and happy and that's what matters, right? But our first year was very very difficult sleep wise. I was like a walking zombie from lack of sleep, that whole year is a blur.
But we are here, and we are doing our best which is really all we can do .

[sparklewings1984]

Sorry I can't get the quote to work on my phone. With the 6am wake up it usually ends up with me feeding him and then eventually pputting him back to bed but he is usually very awake and takes forever to settle so I think I will just treat it as wake up time. This morning I tried to give him just 5 mins bf at 6am when he woke and then he was quite sleepy so lay him back down at 6.30am but he just started shouting and wriggling around so I ended up getting him out again and putting the lights on for WU at 6.45am. Then fed him again at 7am and he didn't go to sleep until 7.45am. I guess because it wasn't real A time he was UT and did a 45 min nap.

The rest of the day went downhill from there! Tomorrow if he wakes any time after 6am I will just treat it as WU in order to try and figure out this first A time. I'm going to stick with 1hr 35 for a couple of days and then tweak from there.

[Ima shel Alon]

Sounds good.

[sparklewings1984]

Soooo....last night was pretty bad. He went to bed at 8pm and eventually settled at 8.20pm. Woke at 10.45pm and I fed him but he only ate 10 mins. He woke again an hour after I put him down. Tried to hold off feeding him but he seemed hungry so ended up feeding again at 12.30am. He then WOULD NOT go back into his crib. He was being really clingy and crying whenever I lay him down which is really unusual at night, he doesn't really cry at night unless he has wind or is hungry.

Eventually got him back in the crib at 2.45am after another feed and he had dozed in my arms for half an hour in between feeds. He slept until 6.15am but had only had about 7.5 hours sleep overnight

He was due a feed so I knew he wouldn't resettle and I treated the 6.15am as WU. Got him to do a 1.5hr nap at 7.50am but I think that was purely because he was still tired from having no nighttime sleep.

The rest of today hasn't been great. Got another 45 min nap this morning, then took him in the pram so he got a 1hr 20min nap. He then did another nap in his cot for 45 mins this afternoon but has been screaming since he woke from that at 5pm.

Do you think this screaming now is from being OT all day? He has finally passed out on me now and we will do BT when he wakes. He hasn't been like this in the evenings for a few weeks and I would say he is getting more daytime sleep than he was so I'm confused.

[Ima shel Alon]

Yes, it does sounds like OT to me. Sometimes there are just nights like that when they need us more and there is no apparent reason. Hope today was better for you.

[sparklewings1984]

Well my sister in law came round yesterday and having 3 young boys herself I tend to listen to her when it comes to babies! She agreed with me about LO teething so went to buy some teething granules. Gave him a dose at 1.30pm and he became a totally different baby all afternoon and evening! Gave him another dose at 7pm before his BT feed. He wouldn't settle well at 8pm, eventually got him to settle at 8.45pm after feeding him a little more. He woke at 10.45pm wanting food and I was thinking "here we go, another terrible night". Well I lay him down at 11.30pm and he woke up at 6.40am!!!

So I think the teething may definitely have been our problem!

Anyway, yesterday and today his first A time was 1hr 35 both days and I got 50 min naps both times. His sleep cycle is usually 39 mins. Would a 50 min nap signal UT in this case? I heard him stir both days at the 40 min mark so I think he did get through his sleep cycle and then woke afterwards.

Feeling so much better now I have my happy baby back