2-1 transition - advice please on a 12 mo

[Canadian Nat]

Hello Everyone

My lo just turned 1 year old on Boxing Day, and I've been having signs that she wants to maybe go to 1 nap for a few weeks I think. 

I've tried looking at the FAQ first and am not sure if she fits into the long morning nap scenario or the long afternoon nap scenario as she seems to have gone from favouring the latter to favouring the first.  It changes.  So that is why I'm looking for help here.

My problem is that she seems to wake in the night at any point and now usually can't go back to sleep.  I try checking if there is anything wrong with the usual checks of nappy, temperature, pain etc but when all that fails and she keeps doing the odd cry and then listening to see if I will come to her, I begin to think that she is just taking advantage of me and wants me to get her up.  However, when I try to settle her by maybe sitting her on my knee she seems happy to be there (as if that is what she wanted), but then strains her head back as if to say, put me down.  So, I do, but she keeps crying on and off.  In the end I just keep putting her down when she sits up.  I'm up sometimes for 1.5-3 hours with her...She's never slept well anyway and I think this is partly due to me having to sleep in the same room as her as we're in a long-term temporary living situation with my mum.  But the sleeping seems to be getting worse.  Now, after being up for hours in the night, she is obviously tired the next day.  So, she has long naps, either in the morning or the afternoon (up to 2.5 hours).  I've been trying to see how to play this so as not to get her in the OT area...I don't know what to do really.  I have read on the FAQ that I should perhaps try an early bedtime as she won't go down for an afternoon nap if she's had a long morning nap. 

Please can anyone advise me?  Here's the rough routine she's on:

6/6.30am - wake
6.45/7am - bottle

7.45/8am - breakfast

10am - snack (I've brought this earlier as she's so tired because of her NWs)
1030am - nap
(2.5hrs)

1pm - lunch

3pm - nap - not happening

3.30pm - snack (she's jus gone onto snacks and dropped a bottle)

4pm - nap - not happening

5.15/5.30pm - dinner

6.30pm bed and bottle

This routine is today's routine.  I've brought bedtime earlier as it is usually at 7pm.  I've done this because she's OT from not napping this afternoon.

I also have a 2.7month old.

Please help!

Thanks.

[Canadian Nat]

When I say I also have a 2.7 month old I mean a 2year and 7 month old (I was typing in a rush!).

[Martini~]

Hello Honey! Firstly hugs for you situation as long NWs are so dreadful! And now some rough advice but please let me know what do you think so we can tweak together:
1. I think that if she was never a good sleeper you cannot expect her to sleep 14,5h+ for 24h as it's just to much for her. Can you please think and try to tell how much was she sleeping overall in 24h before the transition started?
2. Her morning nap is very long but fortunately muh to early (4h after WU) to let her go on one nap day without being OT at BT. On the other hand, she is not get tired at 3 for a good nap. What I would suggest in this transition if you want to go for long am- short pm routine is:
- push the morning nap as much as you can
- trying to APOP a short afternoon nap (don't know if this is possible for you ie pram/ car seat etc)
- if she slept 2h+ during day I wouldn't go for EBT as there is not much she can compensate with
- if it's still difficult to get afternoon nap, you may cut slightly morning nap let say to maks 1,5h (decide yourself how much cutting if needed) and check if she would be interested in settling for let's say 45min afternoon nap at 3pm
3. You may also go with short-long nap stategy which I like especially with early morning wakeups and night wakings as it doesn't allow them to catch up on lost night sleep too early and on the other hand it prevents OT in the evening. So if she is tired after difficult night, put her down 2,5-3h after WU but give her a shorter nap so 20/30/45min (once again you have to find your way) and than put her for longer nap on the afternoon for 1,5h. It's difficult here to find right timing for second nap so you have to check what's good for you LO. At age 1y+ I would go probably for really short morning as 15-30min around 9am and 1,5-2h around 1pm.

Regarding what's best for your LO short-long or the opposite I believe that they will adapt to what you propose but try to be flexible. So decide what solution suits you better and try to be consistent. Do not push to a "book" routine but try to make a tailor-made one for your dd but when you find one, try to offer the same nap time and BT every day.

Regarding NW - they seem UT to me so I would try to address them properly... I would go for PD only if she stands by her own, silent voice reassurance if needed. When she wi be settling with you in the room but without your assistance I would go for walk-in/walk-out strategy to teach her to go to sleep totally on her own. When there will be no routine issues, maybe she will wake less at night - but still, sometimes NW stały for longer, that's why it's important to address them properly:).

HTH!!

[Canadian Nat]

Hi and thanks for your reply.

I'll try and answer your response in order:
1.  I think her amount of sleep varied depending on disturbances etc but was roughly a 1.5 nap and a other nap of 1hrs, then about 10 hrs at night but disturbed any amount of times, say waking up 2-3 times a night.
2. Re the long short nap option: this is what might happen today as I've tried pushing her to A time to nearly 4 hrs but on the little good sleep she's had overnight it's been hard to stretch her. I thought I'll try shortening it to 1.5 first and hope she's tired for a short nap pm?

If this doesn't work then I could try the short long option.

Btw, my health visitor (who I called in tears this morning before I read your reply!) seems to think me sleeping in the same room as the baby is what is the problem (I've had to do this since she was born as we're decorating a new house on our own and it's taken forever to do...).

Baby also uses a soother to go for naps and to sleep at bedtime- not at any other time. She could also be waking for that reason too, wanting me to put the soother in again. ..

I'm also going to see my doctor about getting something to help me with anxiety as I don't think m depressed but am, and always have been an anxious mum, but what with a year of worsening sleep deprivation now, I'm at breaking point...

[Martini~]

Oh sweetie! Amazingly big hugs once again. You don't have to tell me about anxious mums as I have always been like that:))) so you just found a mate here! If you fill it will help I would definitely go to the doctor and ask for help. Have you done the Edinburgh test for depression? We have it somewhere here - answering these couple of questions may help you go know if ppd is sneaking in.

Regarding sleeping in the same room, I don't think it's a major problem here. Many LOs sleeps with parents and many sleep with siblings and they still can go through the night. Of course if she is a light sleeper maybe darkened room and little noise can help, but don't think that without another room your LO will never sleep. Totally different story is if it helped with your anxiety. I sleep much better when DS is in his own room as I am not waking when he is moving, grunting or wherever similar. Is there any chance, for your own comfort and health, you could find a quite place/room for him to sleep only even with the refurbishing going on?

And remember that at 1yo when you are going through 2-1 transition and there is wonder week craziness (8th leap) and teething, there are always some more sleep disturbances but it's just a phase and it will pass. I am sure.

Now!!! Your routine:) I think we should be aiming for 2-2,5h of sleep in total and 11h of sleep per night. So starting routine at let's say 6:30 and BT at 7/7:30 depending on how the nap went. Please let me know how your day went today and that we can honk what's next.

I also would propose you, especially if you sleep in the same room to start addressing night wakings without picking her up. Do you have BWSAYP book? Could you re-read the chapter about PUPD at that age? There is also the whole chapter about NW after LO is one. If you don't have I will post some links later, as when writing from my phone I cannot do it.
Generally I would only put her down when she tries to stand and reassure her with voice - stimulation to the minimum. First nights will be very difficult but she will get it. You may try to use ear plugs to help you cope with the crying. I also have seen a thread today on the board of toddler sleep about PUPD at 12mo. She prepared herself very good and she is successful so far so maybe it will motivate you? If you don't find it, I will also paste a link later!

Meantime keeping FX for afternoon nap and going back to Xmas sale shopping:)))

[Canadian Nat]

Hi

I haven't tried that test this time around, but maybe the doctor will do it when I go?

I think she is a light sleeper (as am I).  The room is pitch black, so no problem there with light bugging her.  We are quiet overnight, unless the 2 year old wakes.  The only thing that I know can happen is that I disturb her when I turn over in bed...It is such a pain.  I lie there tense half the time trying not to move and I struggle to get in the bed without rustling the duvet!  I can't sleep (or the baby either) in another room as we are living with my mum while the house is decorated, so my mum only has so many rooms to fit us...(my husband sleeps downstairs on a sofabed so that he can have the monitor for the 2 year old - if we had it in my room with the baby, it would disturb the baby if the toddler woke up, so that is why we have this strange sleeping situation).

What at is the 8th leap and wonder week you mention?  I know she is teething as I can see a tooth peeking through.

You mention that we could probably aim for 2-2.5hours of sleep in the day.  Well today, she only had one nap again...In the morning and it was for 1.5 hours roughly.  She came around by herself, no need to wake her from it.  But unfortunately, she didn't nap again in the afternoon at around 4.30pm (it was this late because my mum took the children out while my husband and I were at the house decorating).  So, I don't know what to do...Also, worth noting, she was in a fairly good mood this evening despite not having a nap in the afternoon.  Is she delirious with sleep deprivation?!  With the 11 hours sleep at night, do you mean undisturbed by NW?  It looks like my day starts and ends as you say (i.e. 6.30am and ends at 7pm - except for the last two days when I've pulled it earlier to 6.30pm due to her not napping in the afternoon.  Is this wrong?).

When she wakes at night what I do is this:  I wait for her to keep persisting in her one-off cries until she sounds like she's going to get worse. I go over and feel if she is wet or hot/cold.  I put her soother back in if she has lost it.  She isn't always sitting up when I go over to her but up on her arms as if to sit up.  Sometimes she is sitting up.  It is hard to tell in the pitch black until I get to her!  I don't pick her up unless I've tried to keep putting her down and she's not having any of it and gets really upset.  I only pick her up at this point because I begin to wonder whether she is in pain or wet and I missed it, or has soiled her nappy.  I don't look directly at her and I don't talk unless I need to shush her to calm her down.  But over the last two or so nights, it has not got like this.  I have just checked her briefly as I explain above and lay her down again or back onto her back for a change of position for her to start her off again.  I go and lay down and hope she doesn't cry out for me again once I'm laying still in the bed again...So, am I doing it OK?

I do have the book and will check out the parts you mention but won't be able to do it tonight, I'm so tired.  I'll try and check out the thread you mention too.

What do you think about how today went?  Shall I push her morning nap later by 15 minutes over every 3 days?  I think I read that in the information here somewhere.  Because, if she is just going to keep doing this one nap thing, should I try and get her to have it in the afternoon?

[Martini~]

Firstly Honey, you are doing a great job and you have to have balance between yours need and your dd. tou dont have to assist her to sleep at that age for sure and if she is not crying for you but only grunting/moaning it's perfectly fine to try to sleep honey!
At that age it's very important not to let them cry alone but they also need to learn how to self settle. Maybe there are mothers who knows exactly what kind of cry their kid is having but believe me:) a lot of us is asking ourselves that question "can I leave him/her if he is not asleep yet and only moans here a there".

Regarding shared room that's what I am having when occasionally sleeping with DS! I am afraid to move the duvet - this is ridiculous:)! Have you considered sleeping with your husband and only coming to your dd when she needs you? We firstly have to figure out the night waking but if she starts to sleep better?
And where is your 2yo sleeping? Having his/her room?

Wonder weeks are periods in life when kiddos literally jump into new development stage. It start with a fussy period, when they see world with "new eyes" as I likt to call it, they are terrified as there is so much going on in their heads and... When then get used to new abilities, the sunny period comes as they are happy exploring their new skills.
 
Let's see how the night will go. To create a routine for her we have to get a sense how much sleep she needs. Being on one nap at that age is quite common so that's possible. However to prevent OT you have to push the nap. Have you tried putting her for second nap earlier? I have that with my DS - if I try for catnap after 4pm, no matter what was the nap before (when and how long), he will never settle:).

Waiting for your update!

[dache]

Our lo are the same age, and you sound so much like me.
I could have written the same post. In fact, I have  Just as she started STTN chaos took over and now Im just like you,  anxious, sleep deprived mum. You can take a look at it here, maybe you can learn from my mistakes
2-3h A time at night, multiple times.Help!

For what is worth we are living in one bedroom apartment and have always shared room with our lo. And it makes no difference in her sleeping habits. The only way we affect her sleep is if make more then the usual noise when she is transitioning between sleep stages and she is awaken by the noise. But this rarely happens.
Can your lo replug the paci on her own? I put at least 3 in the crib. And plan to add more if needed. This has made a big difference. She fusses about the paci only if she cant find it one on her own. You can try the ones that glow in the dark so that they are easy to find.

Are you medicating for the teething? Molars are very bad, could it be that?

FX we both have good nights tonight. Please share your update, I really like to hear how it went.

[Martini~]

Honey - link of the lady who did a sleep training with PUPD. Nice to read in my opinion!

Going to attempt Gentle Sleep Training for my 12 month old starting tonight.

[Canadian Nat]

Hello
Before I start, I managed to delete the title/subject line of my topic, so apologies if this confuses you!

Well, last night she woke at 9.45pm and I know this is because I made her stir a couple of times when I came into the room to sleep.  I stuck the soother back in and she went straight off to sleep again.  Then she woke at 2am,don't know why.  Could be she was just coming out of a sleep cycle and felt that her soother wasn't there.  So I stuck it in again and she took a little of a while to get back to sleep but she didn't call me back as far as I can remember.  Then she woke at 6am for the day to start.  So that was not as bad a night.  Today, she did the same thing with her naps as the other day, she only had nearly two hours this morning from 11am until nearly 1pm.  Although she did stir a little during that time.  She seemed quite happy the rest of the day again without an afternoon nap.  Do you think that she is doing this 2-1 transition then?  Do you think she is getting used to having one nap only or do you think it is just a phase?  I'm really in disbelief at what is going on!

To answer your question, I don't really want to sleep downstairs with husband as if I have to go to the baby in the night I have to go past the toddler's room and the terraced house is old and has really squeaky stairs!   And my toddler sleeps in her own room, yes.

Yes, I have tried giving the afternoon nap earlier but she didn't want it. 

I was wondering, as you say, whether I should push the one and only nap she seems to be having, to later in the day.  So how should I do this?  Do the 15 mins push every 3 days thing?  It would be good if she could take the nap in the afternoon as my toddler sleeps then too...

Thanks too Dache, I'll check out your post asap.  Yes, she can sometimes replug on her own, it depends how asleep she is when she tries.  She just woke now and did it herself.  I saw on the video monitor.  I nearly went in but I held back to see how she went and she replugged.  I am worried that if I leave too many in her cot she'll roll on them and get a sore face or tummy.  I only think this because when I have had to help her in the night to find her soother, I've found it under her tummy and have thought, that must be bugging her!   Maybe that is why she woke up?

I give her neurofen or calpol for the teething pain.

Hope your night is going well. 

Thanks for the link re sleep training Martii85.

I'd be interested to know what you think is happening with my lo's NWs and her nap that seems to be just one a day for the last few days...

Night all...

[Martini~]

I think two things Honey:)
- she is in 2-1 transition so you have to push for as late nap as possible so to minimize OT till BT if she is still reluctant to afternoon cn; if nap was shorter than normal like 1h you may go for short catnap or EBT - depending on what's better for you and her
- it will be some OT here as it is inevitable so you just have to ride it out; but it will pass soon, I promise
- I think you have a dummy prop and it would be great to do something about it, if you want; the questions is, can she resettle by herself at all?

Please let me know if you would like to be ready for dummy weaning and sleep training or maybe it's better to work on teaching her to resettle herself with a dummy at night.

[Canadian Nat]

OK, yes I get what you're saying about pushing the nap.  Today she had a 2 hour nap from 11am-1pm.  So that sounds more like what you said we're aiming for.  I just tried a cat nap at 4.10pm but she didn't want it (I left her there for about 25 mins to see if she would settle but she didn't).  So, I think I'll keep her bedtime a little earlier than 7pm just to avoid OT.  I know you said if it is just 1 hour to do this but I seem to have a baby that seems pretty ok to do just the one nap a day and it could be because I'm making sure she doesn't get OT by giving her a slightly earlier bedtime than normal?  Do you think this too?  So with pushing the nap later, I'll try 11 am tomorrow as well as that will mean she's had 3 days of 11am nap time.  Then after that shall I push it to 11.15am? And every 3 days creep it 15 mins on?  What time do I want to aim to give her the nap in the end?  About 1/2pm?  After lunch time sometime give or take an hour or so depending on when lunch ends up being?

Also, here is what happened last night:  She woke at 9.15pm (I think I mentioned this last night in my previous post because I was posting as she woke up!).  I almost went into her but I looked on the monitor and she was picking up her soother herself and put it in.  She then settled.  Then she woke next at 4.30am.  I popped the soother back in as it was out and she took a little while but went back to sleep until 5.30am.  Then I just let her lay there until 6am (I kind of have a rule to not get her up until at least 6am as I don't want her starting her day earlier than that as I find it too early!).  So, how do you think that night sounded? 

I will put her to bed somewhere near 6.30pm tonight, depending on how tired she seems at that time.  OK?

Also, re sleep training.  I think that given that we're about to do a big house move and she and the other one will be all unsettled for a while, it might be best if you advise me for now how to get her to resettle herself with the soother.  Then after that, maybe I can get back in touch with you for advice about how to sleep train without the soother?  To answer your question, I don't think she can settle herself without the soother at all.  Or perhaps, if you have time and energy, can you give me advice now about how to do both things?  Settling with soother and then settling without soother (i.e. weaning off soother).

Many thanks for all your support.  I feel alone and scared quite frankly.  Life has been so in limbo with our temporary situation in the home and the fact that my husband is always working, I really appreciate some focused support on me and my situation.  The health visitors and services here don't give me the support I need when I really need it, and so to be able to contact you and get your replies is a god-send.  I know it is time consuming so I can't tell you how grateful I am.

[Martini~]

Hello in New Year:)!

Firstly if you feel 6 or 7pm is fine for her, definitely go for that. You are the mom and that's great that you follow her cues, rather than blindly going through proposed routine. Tracy would be proud of you:)
Regarding nap, the general rule is to space it in the middle of the day so 5-5,5h A before and after. But some kiddos like longer A in the afternoon, some need longer A in the morning to get a good nap. If you have 6am WU and 7pm BT I would try for a nap at 11:30 but both 11:00 or even 12:00 are fine - just observe her and decide. It's important that she gets here around 2h so she can survive till BT.

Pushing nap should also result in moving BT later and moving WU consistently till 6:30 as 5:30 is still quite early.

You have couple of better nights there, don't you:)? That's great!

I will post later about dummy prop as have to go and wake my DS from his afternoon catnap:)))!

[Canadian Nat]

Hello

Happy New Year to you too!

Thanks for your reply.  Do you mean the important thing is to work towards getting a 2 hour nap somehow in your previous post?  I'm a bit worried about the timing of the nap that I am aiming for as it will probably mean I am going to be having her lunch late?  I think 11am is just about doable as if she sleeps for 2 hours she'll wake up about 1pm then hopefully so that won't be so bad.  Well, I did manage to get her to an 11am nap the other day so that is good.  I'm getting there.  BUT...

What happened last night may have thrown all that progress away...Of course, being New Year's Eve, there was a lot of noise everywhere and the neighbours were so loud and there were fireworks going off everywhere, so the baby was awake from 10pm to gone midnight...I tried everything to settle her but she was crying on and off and wouldn't let me stay in bed...I ended up standing by her cot so I was to hand to just put  my hand on her and shush her.  But I stood there for about three quarters of an hour...I was slightly weepy I have to say...I gave Calpol etc in case it was pain and in the end she just went quiet but it was hours...What do you think?

Anyway, today she had 1.5 hrs in the morning and about 1hr 20mins this afternoon (we had to wake her as it was nearly dinner time).  I wasn't surprised that she took an afternoon nap after a fews days of not taking it because she had such an awful night.  However, tonight, she wouldn't let me go out of the room when I put her down.  I don't know if it is because she had that extra afternoon nap and she's now not used to it as she's just been getting used to 1 nap?  Or whether - as my mum said - she misses me (I've been going out to the shops and the new house to sort out curtains with hubby over the last couple of days or so).  What do you think?  I went in tonight to just lay her down each time she cried and it happened about 5/6 times.  In the end, I could see on the monitor that she was just sitting up in the dark in silence.  About 5 minutes later she just lay down.  But she hasn't gone to sleep in the usual position therefore, so she'll probably wake up crying about it all...

Any advice? 

I hope you had a good New Year's Day.  I'll let you know how tonight goes.

[Martini~]

Hi!

Difficult to say why she woke and couldn't go back to sleep but my guess is that she is balancing her good sleep with OT and is anything disturb her sleep it may end like that. You acted well and for next time I would be consistent. Just take a method you believe in and keep to it. And this age it maybe only sitting next to her and calm voice reassurance, maybe hand on her. If she stands up, you may put her down and that's all.

Regarding today, I bet she was UT for BT honey. I know that after that kind of night she might be tired but it may reinforce her night waking and you will be in a vicious cycle. It doesn't mean that she cannot have two naps, but I would go for a much shorter one in the afternoon - something which will help her go till BT, nothing more. Count day sleep, for 13h day at her age and in comparison to what she was doing, I wouldn't let more than 2-2,5h of daytime sleep (you have to decide). At days like that you may else go for EBT - maybe it will work for you.

Regarding feeding, can you please post you feeding schedule?
At that age I would go for breakfast, morning tea and lunch before nap to make sure she is not not hungry for her nap, and afternoon snack and dinner followed by BT milk.

Promised to write about dummy. So I am not a specialist as we weaned dummy at 3mo:) but will share a good practice. Please be aware that usually people don't wean dummies at that age if I am correct. The worst age for dummy is from 3 till 7/8mo when they can be addicted but are not yet able to replug.

How to help her her resettle at night:
- put couple of dummies to her bed so she always can find one
- if you are afraid they will fall out, some people you a kind of a cotton net they round the bed (can you imagine that?) so that objects like dummies or lovey cannot fall out
- buy glowing in the dark dummies, it's easier to find them at night
- offer her a special dummy-lovey, it is a lovey with a place you attached the dummy; it will be easier for her to find it at night
- when you teach her, never give her dummy but instead take her hand at help her find the dummy by herself.

If I have any other ideas, I will write!