Requesting help and advice for numerous issues with my 4.5 month old

[Nikkirod]

I can handle ten days.  But I really want to see some progress to encourage me.

The first nap was 37 minutes--her standard one cycle.

I thought about not training for the second nap but something in me said to do it again.  I did it again, it was basically the same process.  I am not really shush/patting her, honestly, we don't get there.  As soon as I lay her down on her side she flips to belly and starts crying.  I pick her up.  Repeat.  It ends with her just being too tired really to fuss, I lay her down and she accepts it because she is basically asleep, no real shush patting.

Becj, can I ask you, you said it will be easier now than at 6 months.  I feel conflicted because everything I read says they can't self-soothe until 6 months.  So am I expecting something of her that she is not yet capable of?  If I hadn't read your comment about 4.5 months being easier, I probably would have decided to give up and wait till 6 months.  But it seems crazy to wait another 6 months letter her nurse on me through her entire nap.

People do this at 4.5 months and it's not traumatizing for their children?  So when Pantley says "no-cry" she doesn't mean that your child doesn't cry, she just means that you respond to it, right?  Sylvie was worked up from the start, crying each time I put her down.  I picked her up right away and eventually she kind of just passed out.  I feel like this is so stressful for her.  Please confirm that there is value in this???

[becj86]

I'm really glad I taught DS to sleep independently. That's why I pay it forward helping others who want to help their kids learn this too.

What are you looking to achieve? If you're happy to have her sleep on you, you can do the routine so she gets good sleep without doing the sleep training. If you want her to learn to sleep independently, so she can sleep without you, then this is a gentler way to do it.

She will be upset, that is normal. Her whole life, she has fallen asleep a different way and you're changing the rules. As adults, we have a bodily reaction to change or we say something about the change not being what we want or just being uncomfortable because it is change. As a baby, all she has is crying. You're there with her and that is what matters.

Are you putting her down in a new environment she's not slept in before?
Is she tired and not too OT when you put her down?
Did you try to resettle after she woke from the nap? You may find hold rough the jolts useful around that sleep cycle transition.
What's your daily routine look like?

[Nikkirod]

Bec, I appreciate the questions.

It's helpful hearing your experience and I appreciate that you're paying it forward!

We did shush/pat with pu/pd at bedtime and while I was sitting there crying and wanting to die, at the end of it, my husband said, "wow, that wasn't bad at all."  I am soft, that's for sure. It took about 30 minutes and there was certainly crying but we responded every time and it wasn't really hysterical.

In terms of what I am looking to achieve: I want her to get back into sleeping at night.  I don't expect any crazy 12 hour stretches, but I used to get at least 4-5 hour stretches (often 6-7) and she was a well rested, happy girl, ready to learn and explore during the day.  Since she started waking every 45 minutes at night, she is an OT mess during the day.  Not crying, but not really able to learn and explore.  So I want for her to be getting a good night sleep and I feel like she is waking that often because she doesn't know how to put herself back to sleep as her cycles transition.

I also want her to be getting good naps.  For at least a month now she only takes 30-40 minute naps.  They are not restorative and she grows more tired throughout the day.  Last week she was napping mostly 20 minutes and refusing to let my nipple out of her mouth.  So I want for her to be able to get restorative naps, and I want for myself to have time to refresh so I can be a good mom to her.  It's hard to stay grounded when I don't get any break.  I also have work to do.

I am not putting her in a new environment, it's our bed, where she always sleeps and naps.

She lives OT because her naps are so short.  I used to sneak 5 naps a day in in order to get her the required amount of nap time.  That meant she was napping after being awake for an hour only.  But here on this post it was recommended to wait 2-3 hours and that is working, she is accepting naps more readily.  But today she got a total of 62 minutes sleep--no joke.  So by bedtime she was an OT mess who didn't even really want to nurse.  My husband rocked her pu/pd-ed and shusshed and patted. 

Our routine is: get up somewhere 6-7, nap two hours later in family bed (I used to nurse her to sleep now I did the whole thing), etc.  we play both in the bedroom and downstairs.  Playing includes floor time, and lots of cuddles, we sing, dance, read.  She sits in a bumbo while I cook.  Stuff like that.  I don't go out much honestly.  I do try to expose her to bright light when she isn't sleeping, but I live in Cleveland Ohio (US) where it is extremely dark.

I did try to resettle her the first time.  Both times she woke up today (she only napped twice, refused the third because she was too stimulated from the whole thing) she looked like she would go back, unlike in the past when she wakes up absolutely wide awake.  I shusshed a bit and the first time tried to nurse her, but I didn't give it too much because I just felt so frazzled from the whole day.  I could do more to get her to go back--suggestions?

[deb]

This might be an off the wall idea, but it sounds like you need some restoring before you go another round. Will she sleep ON you? I found that DD1 would sleep on her tummy on MY tummy (make sure you pee first! And don't ask me how I know that ) for a good long nap through about 3-4 months; it might help break the cycle or at least give YOU a chance to get some badly-needed rest. (DD1 would also sleep on DH the same way.) Something about snuggling with another person, the rhythm of the breathing, I don't know what it was, but a 2-3-hour nap happened more than once that way, helped get us thru the day. Then we could start the sleep training anew once we weren't so shattered.

[becj86]

You're not soft, you're a mum with hormones from BF running through your system which throw you into protective mode every time your baby cries. That's how the human race survived.

The way I did it was to have L on a consistent routine that I knew worked for him before ST. That may work for you, but you may need to do some ST before you even get a good routine going if she's waking after so short a time even whilst sleeping with you, ie. She can't transition even with her prop right there.

If you want to do the routine thing first and ST once she's better rested and used to sleeping in that routine, try napping however it works for her - in a wrap/carrier, swaddled on the floor wherever you are, or whatever works for you. DS slept in a baby basket which I took with me, he slept on the floor in the laundry, in the garden, in the bathroom while I showered, etc. and then when it came time to put him in the cot, the basket went in the dot so he wasn't in a completely new environment.

I would suggest starting from A time of 2:15 and doing a top up BF halfway through A time if necessary to get her through rather than feeding to sleep. My sneaky boy's tired cue was rooting as if he was hungry but really he was tired and fed much better with feeds further apart, and slept better if I put him down rather than trying to keep him awake for a feed he wasn't actually hungry for.
Routine would look something like this:
7 WU, E
A
9:15 S
10:45 E
A
12 S
1:30 E
A
2:45 S
4:15 E
6:30 BT
Or thereabouts.

My question now is around pain. Do you think there's a possibility she is in pain with reflux or similar, given she's waking after 20 min and wanting the breast so often? It's a common symptom and worth checking before you do ST, especially with PUPD because PUPD aggravates reflux and there are things you can do to make it easier on a LO who is in pain.

[Nikkirod]

Deb: what an adorable idea, I have to try that!

And Becj, your experience with getting your DS on a firm schedule sounds so truly like the best way to do it.  I bet you had way less griping/crying than I've had.  I was not attracted to a scheduled day when Sylvie was born, but I already see why it's such a good way to go.  It just kind of regulates everything for them.

So, this is day 2 of ST.  Last night, I'm happy to report, Sylvie got her best night sleep she has ever had.  Went down at 6, woke briefly at 7 which is very normal for her, slept till 1:30, slept till 4:45, slept till 6:15.  She let me put her down for shush pat with each NW without any griping at all.  My breasts were damn near exploding.

And then, right now, she is taking the longest ever nap taken out of my arms.  I can't believe it.  We're up to an hour and still counting.  So she got through the sleep cycle on her own.  Others told me she wouldn't be able to do that till 6-8 months.  Bless you both for your coaching.

She griped way more than she cried today.  It was like, "ok, I know the routine, but I want you to know I don't like it."  There was some crying, but really truly limited and short lived.

I am pretty much on cloud 9.  I still feel unresolved about the crying.  I feel like I imposed the worst crying she has ever had.  It seems somehow unnatural and selfish.  I am trying to remember the best part of all of this: she woke up this morning and I knew I had my girl back: bright eyed, smiling, laughing, ready to play and learn.  She is so well rested already, and we are only on day 2.  So I guess that result is worth the crying?  I mean, I know that's the truth.  I still just feel a little traumatized about the tears but it's true that my hormones are behind it.

[deb]

It's a learning process for you both - it's a nice thought that there will never be tears, but life will have tears. There will be days when you'll have to take something dangerous from her and she'll protest and tantrum about that - and you and she will learn from it, process it, and move on.

It's a journey....just keep swimming, just keep swimming.

[Nikkirod]

I really appreciate that perspective.  I think this is a new-mom thing   I'm sure by the time there's another I'll be at least slightly less sensitive about the tears!

[becj86]

Oh, we had a lot of crying on both our parts while I worked out he was different from the average kid and needed a different timing but once I worked out his cues, it made everything else so much easier. Truly, sticking with EAS in order made everything so much easier, I knew what was next and so did L.

So glad you're getting your girl back, it makes such a difference when you both get some sleep. It's worth being elastic rather than super flexible or super rigid. Allowing for compromise in which needs of mum and baby are both met is most sustainable. It's a nice idea to never have tears but honestly, the tears will happen at some point, best thing you can do is be there and support her through it.

Sounds like you're onto a winner and it might be worth sticking with your current approach since you're getting results. Keep in mind she may have another protest 3-5 days into this just to check this is the new routine.

[Nikkirod]

Hi again.

So, I think we are in the protest phase.  We just had a terrible terrible night.  And a terrible nap day.  My husband was napping her today and we are in a different place--a place we spend a week a month in.  So it's not like we are "traveling" per say, because we are here every month and Sylvie knows the place and knows that when we are here she is with my husband mostly.

The good news is, when we were driving here, we do so at night so she can sleep. Usually we struggle to get her to sleep in the car seat but she did a fabulous job when she would wake up, we stopped so I could nurse her, then she happily went back to sleep and settled into her car seat.  So that was a success for sure.

Then today she went down easy for my husband, using the shush/pat method, for both of her naps, but then she took extremely short naps.  That was no big deal, but she was certainly OT when we put her down for bed.

She absolutely protested, every time I put her down, and the crying got worse and worse without abatement.  Does that sound typical for a protest?  Eventually my husband rocked her (he had tried earlier in the process and she didn't calm down), she did calm down, and the first time he put her down she settled in without crying.

My questions are: does this sound typical for a protest?  Also, this night made me double think the idea of pu/pd by putting her back on and off my nipple.  That's Pantley's plan.  But since she went down immediately after my husband rocked her, I wonder if the nipple was too hard to say goodbye to, whereas the rocking, she was fine saying goodbye to, so she was ready to settle in.  As if the nipple removal was too jarring?  I know the EASY plan doesn't involve nursing before sleep.  I am hesitant to enforce that but it seems it might be a good thing.

After we got her down I cried for like an hour.  Ugh that was so hard.

[becj86]

It's possible that she is testing...

The super short naps could be overstimulation. It could well be from the change in primary caregiver for the day, different location, etc. Does DH put the TV on for background? that always resulted in short naps for us

Had you been away all day and just come back before putting her down? She may have just wanted to be with you, it may not have been about the breast so much as *you*. Sometimes, whilst you may really want to see her, it's best to come home a bit earlier if you can or leave DH to do BT and you then do the feeds at night, though be prepared that she may wake more at night to see you

[Nikkirod]

Yeah, it definitely could be overstimulation.  Those short naps don't help anything.

DH does not put the TV on.  And you're right, it totally could have just been about being with me and not the nipple per say.  But I have two hours in the morning with her, two hours at lunchtime with her (which matched up perfectly to awake time yesterday), and then I was home with her for an hour before we started bedtime.  Still though, it's totally possible it was about missing me.  Which makes me feel awful.

Can I ask another question?  We are seeing results with bedtime, fabulous results.  With naps, we have seen results, but sometimes we still struggle--I know that is normal.  I am glad we are seeing results in terms of her sleeping.  But the process hasn't gotten much easier.  There are still a lot of tears involved, far more than I feel comfortable with.  We are only on day 4, just starting day 4.  I am so pleased about her ability to sleep long stretches and she is great at self-soothing in the middle of the night when she wakes, I'm amazed.  But getting her down is still really hard.  Normal?

Although, honestly, my husband just got her down with extremely limited tears and it only took 4 pu-pds.  So maybe there is progress in there.  My thought now is that with her being so OT and OS, there won't start to be limited tears until we resolve that issue?  I am praying for a longer nap.  I am also feeling depressed.  I feel like I am torturing her and that I am a terrible mom.  I haven't felt this down  since my mother died ten years ago.  I am having a hard time remembering that this is good for  her, I feel only like it's torturous and that she probably thinks its needless.  I am worried about ruining her spirit, she is such a happy girl.

[deb]

That crying makes women feel stressed is biology. The sound of crying causes the release of cortisol into the bloodstream - and this effect is FAR more pronounced in women than in men. Cortisol is a "stress hormone." Women are biologically hard-wired, in other words, to make their babies stop crying.

Can I recommend earplugs? It sounds like this is harder on you than on her. I felt my stress melt within seconds when I had earplugs in and the sound of the crying was reduced.

Also maybe let DH put her down as often as is practical for a bit.

It will get easier. Really.

[becj86]

DS took 2hr to calm down from the excitement of seeing DH when we picked him up from work. He would literally shake with excitement, we could feel his body trembling when we held him. Best tips for that are lots of tight hugs, lots of interaction with the person who's been away. Was he putting her down for naps just after she said goodbye to you? Could be that he was still wound up from that.

It is definitely your body reacting, mine is only just settling down now and DS will be 4 in April. My milk finally dried up a couple of months ago after feeding 2.5yr.

It really will get easier. She's definitely in the window for that protest and any change can throw a spanner in the works with sleep training, especially when the routine's not quite down. DS had a hard time with DH going to work for on call, ie. Not coming home at night, so we started saying DH is going to 'work' if coming home in the PM; or DH is going to 'H Island' if he was staying overnight. Even at a very young age, he picked up on that and it's as much about missing the person as knowing what's going on. Practise talking to her about it now and you just never know when she will get it, could be very soon, they understand so much before they can ever speak a word. xx

[Nikkirod]

Thank you both for your support and for great suggestions. We had a terrible nap day yesterday, but then getting her down in the evening was not simple but encouraging. There was one time when I put her down when for about 10 minutes she stared into space sucked on her hand and didn't cry one bit and I was proud of that, I felt like she really was learning to self soothe. She did end up crying at the end of the 10 minutes but it was only a couple more tries and she was down for the night and slept very well.

So just to throw a wrench in the whole thing, she woke up this morning with a mild cold. She was coughing quite a bit is slightly congested, not too bad, and her voice sounds a little hoarse to me. We decided that my husband would just wrap her to nap her, After we tried a couple times to put her down and she seemed very upset and not at all ready to soothe herself.

Do you have it have advice for how to proceed now that she seems to have a cold. My husband is very insistent that we should keep going so long as she's not really sick which she is not right now. But I'm inclined just to do whatever she needs to get her through being sick. I also feel like if we nap her in the wrap it isn't like I'mnursing her to sleep or something like that which would be very regressive. What are your thoughts?

Also I can't help but feel like she is sick because of all of the crying in the last couple of days. She has hasn't been sick yet in her life and this week is probably the most stressed she has ever been and it's hard to believe that wouldn't have lowered her immunity. I'm not feeling so great about that, but I really was encouraged  by last night. I do feel like we're on the right track.