6 mo, NWs not sure what to do - help!!!

[Bears mum]

Hi, I have posted here before for other questions. Now I need a consensus as to what to do with DS. He is 6mo today, following reflux (now settled on meds) and two bouts of terrible bronchiolitis (still slightly wheezy from last but cough now settled) he is still in a bad sleep habit at night. BT at 7, wakes between 10.30 and 11 for bottle then wakes 4 hours later and is awake for 45 - 90 mins!!! I use modified shush/pat to settle if needed for naps, BT and NWs and for the past 6 nights have been trying not to feed at night. He has managed one night with bottle not needed until after 7am, but all the other nights I have fed at after 5am (this used to be wake up time when I was feeding at the fish slot)

Things are better in that a couple of weeks ago I was feeding twice between 11 and 5 and he was still waking early. after the fish bottle he often goes back for another 2-3 hours! Just wondering if I should feed at the 2.30ish wake up as its a 4 hour gap and can't seem to settle for AGES - worried this is becoming a habit to be awake for ages in the night. 
He's on 4 hour EASY so days go

WU 7ish, bottle
S 9.15ish for 1 1/2 hours
E  bottle @ 11 and solids some time after
A
S 11.45ish for 1 1/2 hours
E 3pm bottle
A
S sometimes CN 30mins at 4pm (unless naps later due to later WU)
E solids 5pm
A
S bottle after bath BT 7pm (if no CN, 6.30)

I am back at full time job in 8 days as a surgeon!!!! DH can do feeds at night but will not cope with 90 mins of settling!!
What shall we do (not ready for 2 naps as only just pushing A beyond 2.10hrs)

thanks 

[jessmum46]

Was actually going to say moving towards two naps is exactly what you need to do . Sounds like you are getting UT night wakings which make him tired, so A times are short - it's a vicious cycle.  Work on gently pushing A times just a few mins every 3-4 days until you can get rid of the CN and you should start to see nights improve x

[Bears mum]

thanks for your advice, we will work towards 2 naps. However, I really need to know what to do about the APOP that has occurred overnight. He has had a feed once or twice a night for his whole life and now is electing it when he wakes up. I have always been able to resettle without but this only leads to a 30-60 min sleep.
Last night, for example, he annoyingly woke up at 9.45 and DH picked him up so I felt I had to give his first bottle. He went down easily and then woke at 4 hours (1.45) took 20 mins of settling to go back to sleep and he woke at 2.45! Another 20 mins to settle and woke at 3.45!!!! Because I'm not sure whether this is the right thing, I then fed. He was sleeping after 3oz but I woke him and offered more so he eventually took 6oz and then slept until 7.10.

I have read tracy's first book and the problems book. I can't find the bit on 3-2 transition and I have read the PUPD section which suggests that I should not feed until morning and he will stop waking, but last night was night 7 and before then I have not fed until past 5am with no change in the pattern. Am I confusing him with the 5am feed? Should I be pushing on until a proper wake up bottle downstairs in the light at 7am? (managed this on night number 4)
Or should i feed him as soon as he wakes if its more than 4 hours. He only takes 5-6oz at each bottle feed and refuses more so Im convinced he's not hungry.

[jessmum46]

We have recently been in a very similar situation with night feeds and UT, so I do sympathise.  I wouldn't feed every 4h at this age, I think that's probably too much assuming your DS takes a reasonable amount in the day plus some solids.  What I was finding with my DS was that he was waking from UT, not settling very well so I would feed him and he'd go off again for a good stretch.  I initially thought it was hunger but actually when I made the decision that I would not feed him before the time that I'd fed him the previous night, and persisted resettling, he did go off eventually for several more hours.  I think the feed just relaxed him quicker so he could get back to sleep.  We had feeds around 10.30pm and 2.30/3am so similar to you.

So a couple of options.  My first suggestion would be that if you usually feed around 10.30/11pm then you actually deliberately do this as a dream feed and then don't feed again until morning.  Alternatively you could do what I did and just make a note tonight of what time he feeds.  Tomorrow, you don't give his first feed until at least the time you fed tonight and just try resettling instead.  And then carry on with that to eliminate both feeds.  I found the 10.30pm one relatively quick to get rid of in that way and the later one took a bit longer. 

It's up to you at what point in the morning is ok to feed.  I would personally rather feed at close to morning to avoid an EW (so say from 5.30am onwards) than start the day at that hour, but I probably wouldn't for example go back to feeding at 3am.

This might help with the 3-2: All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months

[Bears mum]

Thanks so much for your prompt reply, it's so nice to have someone to talk to. Do you think that he doesn't need any feeds from 7-7 then? I must admit it had not occurred to me to try and get rid of the late feed. By doing this as a dream feed, do you mean going in when he is asleep? I have done this on a number of occasions but more often that not he will wake for it before I manage to get in there! Do you think that matters? I wonder whether feeding him after he's woken this first time might be confusing as it is then a night feed which I am allowing but then saying no more night feeds but of course he has no idea what time it is!!!
If I feed the first WU (usually 10.30/11) and then not feed until past 3.45 which was this mornings feed, and keep doing that, do you think he will stop waking up? How long does it usually take? I feel like I am replacing feeding with patting and he will now need that to sleep!

[jessmum46]

He may still need a night feed but probably for a bottle fed baby one would be enough at this age (in most cases) provided milk intake in the day is adequate.  My DS is breastfed and has just (as in last four days....) made it through without a feed at all, but he does eat a LOT of food! 

It's entirely up to you which feed you try to get rid of first.  Is he an independent sleeper otherwise?  If so I wouldn't think that feeding once but not other times would be too confusing, my feeling with DS was that his body just needed to get used to not having food at that time.  Whatever you decide you'll need to do it in conjunction with altering his routine as if his A times remain short you will likely get the wakings regardless of what you do feed-wise.

[Bears mum]

Disaster so far today 
Tried to push second A time by 15 mins (managed 2.30 first A and 1.5 nap), but was clearly OT and woke at 30 mins, managed to pat back after 15 mins but woke 20 mins later and had melt down on DH. Needed catnap later so rubbish sleep today.
When you say independent sleeper, I'm not really sure. He goes to sleep in his cot on his own with a little fussing and the occasional hand on back for a few moments. When he wakes he very rarely settles back on his own. He has also NEVER slept for longer than 4ish hours! The longest he's been without a feed is 8 hours. He was exclusively breast fed until 6 weeks ago and I have been slowly reducing BF since then. He has been only on formula for about a week.
Hoping tonight is better, going to give DF and then resist any further feeds until I can't stay awake any longer!!!!

[jessmum46]

It can take a few days for them to get used to new A times so stick with it . How was your night?

[Bears mum]

Funnily enough night was small improvement! Bottle at 11 (woke for it), then woke at 4.15. Needed 30 mins to settle but no feed, had another hour and up for day at 6. Long day today with 3.30hrs total napping and needed CN as lunchtime sleep ended at 2pm. Did manage 3 hr A time for swiimming in middle of day.
So that's the longest he's ever slept! Fingers crossed for lengthening of that stretch of night. Difficult to know how to handle long day as can't really do earlier BT once at work next week and in the past putting him down at 6.30 leads to an early first wake which then knocks the rest of the night out. Any advice?
I wondered about trying to settle at 6 until 7, but partly was too tired myself and partly thought it would probably be futile.

[Bears mum]

Last night was terrible, may have been too much sleep the day before but not sure how to remedy this. He woke at 10pm and was clearly expecting food, although only took 5oz when I eventually fed at 11. Had to wake him for that bottle. Next wake was 1.45 but managed to self-settle and then 3.45 when he was awake for an hour!!!! Crying all the time and occasionally quieting as if going off only to stir again within minutes. He then slept for one more hour until 5.50am when DH got him up.
These early mornings are fine in our house as DH gets up at 6 anyway, but I'm not sure how to handle a 13 hour day with the naps. He's done 1.50hr this morning and 2.30 A just now and gone down for second nap. If he does 1.30hr, he will be up at 2 which is too long until BT even if I made it 6pm
Although he had 3.30hrs nap yesterday, it was a 13 hr day so I was hoping that overall that wasn't too much sleep. He literally dozes off in the morning at about 2.15 so finding this A time particularly hard to push.
Any thoughts?

[jessmum46]

Hugs, you may have seen my thread....our nights are a train wreck too

What was your EASY that day?

I think to do a 13h day you either need two long naps of 2h or thereabouts or you need A times to extend up to around the 3h30 mark.....it may be a case of riding out some OT for a while and throwing in some EBTs where you can.  With the morning A time, it's ok for it to be a bit shorter than the others but if you want a long nap I would beware of allowing it too early.  Just push 5 mins at a time of very low key activity, maybe look in a mirror or walk round the garden? 

[Bears mum]

Thanks, yes am following your thread and was just going to post on there when you replied! Actually last night was the best ever (still pretty crap!). He did do two 2hr naps yesterday in the end, waking at 2.30pm, then had 10 mins in the car at about 5pm. He woke twice around 9pm then slept until midnight when he woke so I fed as if was 11pm feed. Then he was awake briefly at 2.45am and for 20mins at 4.15am which required lots of patting. But then slept until 06.35!!!
Sadly today the second nap was rubbish. Had 2.45 A for morning and seemed very happy. Slept for 1.30hr and self woke. I then gave him another 2.40 A but he didn't seem tired, I couldn't believe it so put him down anyway and got a 45 min nap   
Should have gone for it.
So he's had another CN today as was awake from 2pm.
Feeds are 7 bottle then breakiie, 11.30 lunch, 2.30 bottle, 5pm tea, 7pm bottle.

Did later first feed last night as I wasn't very well so went to bed!

[jessmum46]

Sounds like overall you are headed the right way don't be scared of the numbers, both mine have needed way above 'average' at this age and sleep has only improved once I've accepted that x

[Bears mum]

Last night was the worst for ages, and I started back at work today! Felt like he knew 
The day went
WU 6am
Nap 8.10 - 9.30
Nap 11.50 - 13.00!!!
Obv needed CN so 16.05 - 16.25 in buggy
BT 18.45
WU 21.50, brief but needed us
DF (asleep mostly) @ 23.00
WU 01.30 for 10 mins (ss)
WU 02.20 for 20 mins (ss)
WU 3.50 for an hour and 10 mins 
( vigorous patting throughout!!)
Slept until 8am!!!! DH didn't wake 

Came home today to find teeth 5&6 just breaking through (top middle)!!!
Today after late WU has had 10-10.30 and 12.50 - 14.10. No CN. BT at 6pm as couldn't last.
Have dosed with ibuprofen!!
Planning WU 7, nap 9.30 for 45 mins then 12.45 for 2 hours if possible. What do you think?

[jessmum46]

I think the routine looks ok but it's a big jump from what you've been doing.  Your A times on the days you posted are still really short, I think I'd work on pushing those first and see how you go with that before jumping to the capped nap in the morning.  I know it's what I'm doing but we've been doing much longer A times for quite a while.  You can always try it though!