She is bullying us

[Lollipop86]

Hi.

My DD is now 2,5 years old. We have always had sleep issues. But we were quite on track except for the staying with her until she was asleep. But we worked on that too and it went quite well until she went to kindergarden and she was ill all the time. Of course we were there for her all the time. She was waking up a lot... But now she is OK and she usually sleeps through the night just we still have to be there until she falls asleep. For some time this was OK because she fell asleep quickly and we always knew when she was in deep sleep. Then I decided to end this and started going out and reassuring her and being angry at her and so on. It didn't work.

Now she has developed a habit or I don't know what that she doesn't fall deeply asleep for 45 mins or 1 hour and I think she waits for us to go out so she can start shouting. Really I can't hear her deep slow breaths as before. She is still and quiet. And of course when she starts crying I start...     I get angry and I storm out and then it gets worse. Today - well she was crying just before BT because she bit DH and he shouted at her - I was there with her and we had a nice talk in the dark and then she "fell asleep". I tried 2 times to sneak out and she heard me. I got mad and told her that she had to stop bullying us and talk back at us and I went out. Then she started screaming, not crying, like she was on fire or something. It was horrible. I went back and calmed her, then I stood at the door for some time and I left her door open and now she is quiet. I hope she is asleep! This story has happened a lot lately...

I have to say that since St. Nicholas day when she got scared of him (he is like Santa in our country) she is afraid of everything! Maybe she is afraid of the dark or being alone and she can't say it. But this was going on before that day.
She also started waking up earlier now no matter when we put her down. She sleeps 1 hour in the afternoon. She is not in kindergarden at the time because of her pervious illness but she will start again at the end of January.


We really don't know how to solve this one by ourselves so I'm asking you guys for help. Please help!

[jessmum46]

Ok I have to say this. Your 2.5yo is not bullying you.  Please I know this is a stressful situation, so many hugs for the upset you are going through, but please remember you are the adults here, shouting and getting mad is not going to help.  Toddlers can push you to the limits but you need to model the kind of behaviour you'd like to see from her - if you shout and rage, she will think that's ok too.  Now I'm not saying we don't all lose it from time to time, I know I do and it's not something I'm proud of.  But this sounds like a more frequent occurrence and that can't be good for any of you.

Things that strike me - at this age my DD had dropped her nap.  Could she be UT at bedtime?  Does she ever sleep longer/shorter and does it make a difference?  Does she have all her teeth?  Also you say you try to sneak out on her....that could be far more of an issue than you realise.  Have you ever considered gradual withdrawal to get you to a point where you both know you will leave the room?

[*Ali*]

I agree with Katherine that she is not doing this deliberately and getting mad at her is not the answer. I expect she is anxious about you leaving her once she is asleep and that is why she is finding it difficult to settle to sleep and panicking each time she hears you leave.

I would work on getting further away from the bed until she is happy to fall asleep with you out of the room.  If she has only ever known falling asleep with a parent beside her then it is understandable that she will need time and patience to learn a new way.

[Haribo2012]

Hi I have to say I agree with Katherine and your LO is not bullying you. I know how it feels were are having the same antics with my DS who is 2.8 yrs and wants us to stay in room etc....getting angry just results in it taking longer to get him settled.
For us capping the nap to 30-40 mins and explaining what's goings to happen ie, bedtime in 10 mins, then 5 mins then upstairs. Saying how many stories are being read and getting the books off the shelf and lined up.
Into bed for a cuddle, then I say I will be letting you go to sleep in a moment and I'm just outside your room. If he shouts I just talk back saying good boy night times now, if he cries I go back in cuddle, kiss and repeat etc.

It's a big age for them lots of stuff going on so it may take a while for them to settle down at night. So you know your not alone I'm currently typing this from my position on the stairs as it's bedtime.
xx

Posted with ali

[weaver]

I'm also perched on the stairs outside my 2.5 yo's bedroom.  As pps have said this is a big age for new discoveries and sadly also new fears.  LO needs reassurance

I feel maybe you're reacting to LO as you are because you're stressed in other areas of your life and maybe this was one area where you felt you had control.  Hopefully we can help you make a plan for these tough nights. You are definitely not alone.

[Katet]

I think you've identified a big issue, she has developed fear (a normal age) & she doesn't like being alone.

While I know as a parent it is the most frustrating thing to have a child not go to sleep when you need them to, it really is it is about their own developmental needs & while it might feel she is manipulating her, fortunately she has a few more years before she developmentally can learn from others to be that way - it is a learnt behaviour not an inate skill.

Have you tried actually telling her you are leaving (quick leave) & coming back & checking on her rather than waiting & sneaking out - FWIW how would you feel if a trusted friend took you to foreign country & acted as interpreter & they just snuck off & left you & then when you called them back for help they got mad with you" I tend to like to think of children & sleep in much the same way, they just need that bit of support more often than we actually 'enjoy' giving it.

What I would do is put her to bed with a calm routine, stories cuddles & patting her, then leave telling her you are going to the toilet & go straight back stay a while & then leave for quick break & keep doing that every night, gradually making the spaces you are away longer & the time you are with her shorter, show her you come back.

What ever you do try not to get mad when she gets upset & doesn't go to sleep because really all you are teaching her is that it is ok to get angry when things don't go your way & possibly more importantly what you don't want to teacher her - that 'you are only lovable & worth attention when you do exactly what we as parents want" - I believe the most important thing as a parent is to show our children unconditional love & that means to show more not less love when they are frustrating us & I can tell you my children frustrated me now end with sleep & sometimes I did lose the plot, but I can also say those time NEVER ever brought about improvement, the improvement came when I actually was more loving & supportive of their needs over my own. 

My children are much older, but I continually see it, getting angry is a poor solution, even though it is counter intuitive to how society reacts, but the more love you give the less problems you have & when I learnt to change my mind set from "my baby won't sleep, I'm not doing a good job" to "my baby won't sleep, so I'm going to cuddle him just a bit more because I love him & I want to show him that, the chores can wait" I really did see change & more joy in our family.  Honestly as the Mum of an 11yo... enjoy the fact she wants the time with you, it's slowly turning to friends over Mum here & it has happened all too quickly.

[We Three]

 I agree with all that's been said, too. My dd went through an awful stage at 2.5 where my champion sleeper who loved her bed was suddenly terrified.  For me, the last thing I wanted was for the whole situation to escalate to the degree where she hated bedtime, her bed, and (like some other kids I had seen) started stressing out as soon as the bedtime routine started. I remember rocking her to sleep for a few nights, thinking it would be just a minor glitch, but my habitual girl got hooked on that fast.      I started sitting on the floor by her bed, holding her hand. Told her I could only stay if we were quiet. That got her past the really big fears.
 When it was time to break that habit, I told her I had to go turn off a light somewhere, and I'd be right back. ALWAYS returning in under 30 seconds to build trust. After a week or so of that, I could use the potty (so like 2 minutes) and come right back. Then go get a drink, etc.
 To this day (my dd is 8 yo) that "check" is still our norm. She can allow herself to relax in the knowledge that one of us will be back in for that last kiss in 5 or 10 minutes. At that "check", she usually askes for another check in 2 minutes, which we always do, but she is almost always asleep by then.
 Not saying you need to have it become the habit we have made it...LOL....(we really don't mind, we just get ready for bed ourselves and then check in on her) but the re-building of trust has to happen in some way, and that is a great way to do it.
 For now, to break the negative assosciation with bed/sleep, I'd stay very, very near and not tackle the "I'll be right back" for a while. And when you do, it is so important to keep it very, very brief....come back BEFORE she gets upset/scared. Even if you just pop into the hall to flick a light, just come back right away. It's about trust. Try to think of the long-term benefits of trust and her feeling safe in her bed, rather than the very temporary situation that you have right now. A little bit of work now will last forever in terms of peace and her feeling safe and trusting her enviornment. 

[Truly Blessed]

Hi Honey,

I had to pop on with some ((HUGS)) I have been there too, and I know it can be very hard to keep your cool. 2.5 is a very hard age, and as the ladies have said we all know that It sounds to me like there is a routine issue.

I can also verify that LO's mirror your very behaviour, which in my experience is an eye opener. DS is almost 5 now and the other day he stood with his hands on his hips and did an astounding impression of me, he was giving me consequences, I had to laugh, and then so did he, but my point is if you watch her you will  probably see she is becoming a 'mini me!'

I found at this age DS loved to talk about things, so can you sit down with her calmly and talk about BT at a good moment, with cuddles. Please post her routine so we can take a look.

I echo what We Three said in that leaving the passage light on and telling DS I am going to do X Y Z then I will be back to check on him worked quite well. I did always check back then repeat the process. This was enough to make him calmer and eventually he started to settle in the knowledge that Mammy wasn't far away.

((HUGS))

x.

[weaver]

Yes, my LOs totally mirror my emotion - so if I'm angry, things will go wrong pretty quickly!

[Lollipop86]

Thank you all! Especially for hugs

At the moment I feel like the worst mother in the world...    Which I'm not I know but I do anyway...  We did try lots of things. Including saying we had to go to the bathroom or to drink and that we are in the next room. But we didn't always come right back or she was already crying for us when we got out. So we thought this didn't work. Now I can see that we were on the right track just doing it wrong.
I think she still needs her nap. If she doesn't sleep she gets grumpy and OT. I always thought toddlers needed nap time until at least 4... I worked in a kindergarden and a lot of 6 YO still slept at  nap time.
As for our temper we are both quite quickly upset and we show it. And so does she. She does mirror us as Sammysmammy said, I know that already We try to be calm, we really do! But sometimes you just can't help yourself! I know this is a failure and we have to work on ourselves in order to keep her from this kind of behaviuor. Maybe it is the stress... We've had a bad year. I was jobless and the got a job and then lost it (was not my fault!), had a missed ab., we are trying to make a baby and it's not happening, we are planning to build a house... And I am home for almost 3 years now, maybe I'm losing my mind.
Enough of whining I need to start repairing things. I just hope we didn't make a lot of damage... I already apologised to my DD for yelling at her when she couldn't sleep. I don't know if she knew what I ment but it's worth trying

Her routine:
WU 6.50
E
A
E
NT 1-1.30
A
E
BT 7.30

What do you recomend I do first?

[Truly Blessed]

Hello again Hun,

Bless you, that does sound like you have had an awful lot on your plate. I am off to work now, but first of all having been there, to me this stinks of a 1-0 transitional problem. Here is something for you to read through in order for you to understand fully how it works, and how it can manifest. I thought "Oh S will just stop napping then sleep longer at night!" Doh!  I'll be back later.

The 1-0 transition...Advice and Tips to help you through.

x.

[Lolly]

We had issues with my DD at this age with bedtime and although it is a lot earlier than most children she was MUCH better for dropping the nap. Yes she did get a bit OT in the early days but we rode it out and things settled. We found that even if she had 10mins nap in the car she was awake until 10pm and needed a lot from us when she had been falling asleep independently.

With or without the nap her total overall sleep was about the same, but her temprament and bedtime was so much better for not having a nap and better quality of sleep in the night because she was getting to sleep earlier. My DD had dropped her nap totally by 2.5, she would still quite happily nap every day if I had put her down, but it just wasn't worth the bedtime nonsense and the total grump she was when woken from a caped nap.

I missed the nap but we did get our evenings back as she was out for the count by 7pm with no nap!

Laura

[Haribo2012]

Big big hugs sounds like a hard year, there are lots of us with similar age LO so we can support each other throught it.
Even if your LO doesn't understand an apology it's a good habit to form, I frequently say sorry to my DS if things have got a bit heated. If he screams and I raise my voice back I will often say mummy is sorry for shouting, we don't shout do we etc so at least he knows we can all be wrong at times. I'm sure your LO will feel fine as long as she gets lots of cuddles. My DS is always wanting a cuddle at the min, granted sometimes it's to delay bedtime but like any other phase it will pass once he's feeling a bit less bothered about stuff. x

[Truly Blessed]

Hi Hun,

I echo what Zoe said about communication and apologising to our LO's from a young age. I have always done this to DS when I know I have done less than my best and lost my temper. Now he will sometimes stop mid tantrum and come to me to hug it out, they really do 'get it' with consistency, that everyone makes mistakes including grown up's and for us that has been one of the greatest gifts.

If you and DH are both available at BT, it is important to understand your limits, especially if you admittedly have a short fuse. Try WI/WO or GW but do shifts, so that you relieve each other when it is getting too much.

Are you familiar with the methods 

Walk In/Walk Out vs. The Gradual Withdrawal Method (HOW TO CHOOSE)

How are you feeling, do you have a plan of action 

x.

[Lollipop86]

Hi.

Well I've just been familiar with ssh/pat and Pu/PD as I needed them in the past. Now I've read these techniques and I think we should use GW with her. So far we lay beside her on the floor (she has a big bed with side rails) and stroke her if she wished (but I always say: Just a little and then it's enough. And she gets it and does not fuss). I thought we could now sit on a chair beside her and move the chair back every few days. This would be best for my DH who falls asleep on the floor before she does and then we can say goodbye to the GW plan... Or I liked the idea of "jumping out for a second to do ..." - does this count as the same method as the chair or a combination is OK?

3 days ago DD skipped her nap. We went somewhere in the afternoon and she fell asleep in the car for 10 minutes. She was a bit grumpy after that but we managed to animate her quickly. She fell asleep at 7pm and then she woke up at 5am! She couldn't fall back to sleep. She had her nap at 1-2pm and BT was 7.30pm. She got back on track waking up at 6.30-6.50 am now. With a nap of 40-60 minutes. So after this I can say I think she still needs her nap and maybe skip one every few days if she wants. And I don't get upset with myself anymore if she sleeps less than 1 hour.

Oh and also I did the Toddler Quiz and I was surprised as she obviously turned from spirited baby to textbook toddler

[Truly Blessed]

Hi Hun,

That's such a great update, well done on a super start

I thought we could now sit on a chair beside her and move the chair back every few days.

Yes perfect, sit on a chair sideways, so as to try and avoid contact. Choose a 'sleepy phrase' to use, for eg: "Sleepy time Darling" or something using familiar language to you both, and use it sparingly. When you feel it is possible be 'hands off' Only move on to the next stage when she is handling the current one well. Usually every 3 to 5 days for most.

Or I liked the idea of "jumping out for a second to do ..." - does this count as the same method as the chair or a combination is OK?

The just going to do x y z is more WI/WO. I would stick with GW if it is going well as I do think it sounds like it would suit her best. If you combine it will more than likely confuse her and upset the apple cart. Eventually with GW you will be standing in the doorway, then outside the doorway maybe just saying 'sleepy phrase' if needed so she knows you're there, and you're out Once you have used a method like this it is super, because when you get regressions you can use it again, and you and LO are familiar with it. It is always good to have 'a plan of action' it really helps you to stay in control, IME there is nothing worse than 'flailing in the wind' it is really stressful  .

She got back on track waking up at 6.30-6.50 am now. With a nap of 40-60 minutes. So after this I can say I think she still needs her nap and maybe skip one every few days if she wants. And I don't get upset with myself anymore if she sleeps less than 1 hour.

This sounds sensible to me, often LO's will skip the odd nap during the 1-0, and sometimes it can have a positive effect. I would be tempted to stick with a nap of no more than 45 minutes and see how she goes. How is she upon waking from a nap of this length 

Oh and also I did the Toddler Quiz and I was surprised as she obviously turned from spirited baby to textbook toddler

Lucky you bodes well for success lol.

Here for you all, keep up the good work Sweetie.x.

[Lollipop86]

Hi again.

I just put her down. I sat beside her on a chair. Then I went out 2 times. First was quite OK. But for the second time she already drifted off to light sleep. I asked her if she is asleep and told her that I was going out to ask daddy something. No response. But when I went out she heard me. The floor squeaks like crazy! The most beside the door. So she started crying and I told her again where I was going but it was no use. I went out for 5 seconds and I came back. But it all came out looking like I sneaked out and came back because she cried after me. So what do I do in these cases?

[Truly Blessed]

Just stay Hun, and forget leaving for now. Wait 15 minutes to be sure she is asleep, I think because of what had happened previously WI/WO of any kind could cause upset, does that make sense 

x.

[We Three]

^^ Exactly. Stay for now, get those big fears squashed. You can do the "popping out" in a couple of weeks. 

[weaver]

Gah! Squeaky floors!!

ITA with Vicki and Anne, stick with staying with her for now.

Just wanted to add, my LO2 is around the same age and she really appreciates a clear explanation of what's going on. So I say I'm going to be just outside the door, or in the kitchen, or whatever. I think it's important to her that it's a real true explanation, not a made-up reason to pop out, iyswim.

[Haribo2012]

^^^ totally agree! Stay for now so she's nice and reassured. I always say I'm sitting on top step of stairs or middle/bottom step etc then if DS pops out he can see I kept my word and then just pop back into bed and repeat. It's hard work but totally worth it and she will get it soon. x

[We Three]

 I personally think the "I'll be in the kitchen" is a while off. First, LO needs to just experience that Mommy left, came back immediately, and all was well. That needs to happen dozens of time IMO before Mom will be able to pop to the kitchen or fold laundry. It took us about 3 weeks of "popping out" before we got to the "I'll see you in 2 minutes for another kiss."  Returning BEFORE the lo gets upset is key.

[Katet]

The most beside the door. So she started crying and I told her again where I was going but it was no use. I went out for 5 seconds and I came back. But it all came out looking like I sneaked out and came back because she cried after me. So what do I do in these cases?

I agree with the others in those sort of situations, you really don't leave, the moment your leaving disturbs them you are better to stay than to go.

 

Returning BEFORE the lo gets upset is key.

This totally

If you think she is drifting off, then at this stage it is better not to attempt to leave if it is going to disrupt, in a couple of weeks give it a go, but in the early days just build the trust. But make sure you tell her that you will later leave & sleep in your own bed so she knows you won't be there in the middle of the night, but can come to her when she calls in the middle of the night

[Lollipop86]

Hi. Sammysmammy, I didn't see your post before I sent mine, sorry. And then it looked like I was doing things my way...
 
OK, you've all been helpful and I got some good advice. Thank you all. We will sit beside her and move the chair. I hope it goes OK

I just don't know why sometimes she wakes up so early. Yesterday she had her nap in the car (40 minutes; 12.40-1.20) and we put her down at about 7.45. She woke up at 6am, earlier as usual. Was she OT or does she just need less sleep now? A few months ago she always slept about 12 hours at night.

[snowbird]

Hi, yes. we've all been there! So difficult!

Just to clarify, you are sitting next to her on the chair and staying there until she is fast asleep, maybe 15 mins after you think she is asleep so as not to disturb her. Moving the chair is something you do later on in the process. E.g. stay where you are for a few days. Then on day 3 move the chair back slightly and stay where you are until she is fast asleep, day 5 move it back slightly again etc.

Another thing is to make sure you're getting some YOU time - finding something you can do for yourself! This will help you to deal with this situation too and be more patient. xxx

[Lollipop86]

Snowbird, thank you. I knew that The key is to be patient     I will do my best.

Ugh, today she woke up at 2am and came out of the room totally conscious. I put her down (she struggled) and then I got cold and my nose leaked and I got sore throat so I had to go out... So my hubby had to go there. Obviously he came back too soon as she got out of the bed again! They read a short story and then she gradually fell back to sleep... She then woke up at 7.25. I hate these nights!

[Truly Blessed]

Hi Hun,

Can you post her typical routine please, being wide awake at that time of night makes me think it could do with a tweak.x.

[*Ali*]

I wouldn't engage her in anything fun at night like reading a story or it will just motivate her to keep waking. I'd just sit in the room like you do for BT and wait for her to sleep.

[Truly Blessed]

Yes, agree with Ali Hun, sorry I meant to add that too.x.

[Lollipop86]

I know! I wouldn't read to her in the MOTN!    He said it was the only way to get her back to bed which I don't believe... Men...

Her routine:
WU 6.50
E
A
E
NT cca. 1.30 (45 to 60 min)
A
E
BT 7.30

Yesterday NT was at 2 (45 min), she fell asleep at 7.45, she woke up today at 6.10. We cuddled until 7 in my bed (she rarely falls asleep in my bed).

[Lollipop86]

Long time no answer    Well I know you are all very busy with all the questions. So I will write a little.
My DD is back to kindergarden. Today for the first time. I think she didn't sleep there very much and also she went quite late to bed yesterday so she fell asleep in the afternoon on a trip to a hill in the backpack. It is now 7.45 here and she is in bed. She is not asleep yet.
But I don't know if we are making any progress with the sleep thing. She wants her dad to cuddle her at BT. And he also went out to soon a few times and she woke up. He than said everything was allright and he would leave the door open. She was quiet then and eventually fell asleep. 

[Haribo2012]

Hi hun, I'd say that if she seems ok and not upset at the leaving the door open then that's progress...hopefully means she's feeling more at ease and knows you or DH will return if she needs you.

How have your nights been?x

[weaver]

She wants her dad to cuddle her at BT. And he also went out to soon a few times and she woke up. He than said everything was allright and he would leave the door open. She was quiet then and eventually fell asleep

This sounds great - she's got to lying quietly in her cot and going to sleep.  I think you've made huge progress there.

The ability to lie in her cot and wait to go to sleep is a great gift!  If she's happy there, don't worry about it.

[Truly Blessed]

I echo what the ladies have said Hun, it''s super progress, and sometimes, accidentally we find that a LO can take a step further than we thought, and if you can go with it that's great, sometimes it works sometimes not, but as long as she isn't upset and coping all's well. Stick with it and well done to you all x.

[Lollipop86]

Thanks!

The only problem now is that it works only on my husband. She cries after me... Or she wants him. I don't know... she seems to be more relaxed with him. 
Well I hope she will let me do this eventually. For now maybe my DH will have to put her down.

The nights are great! She sleeps thrue them or maybe WU once to drink or if she gets tangled in her blanket. She sleeps 10-11 hours and 1-2 for NT. But she went back to kindergarden now and she has trouble sleeping there so she is a bit tired now. But I think this will normalise soon.

[weaver]

You can shoot for an early BT if she's tired after kindergarten and it suits your schedule.  Maybe try to accommodate her need for you in other ways - more cuddles, more 1-1 time?  Clearly it's something she needs to work through so I'd take it gently or, yes, let DH do it!

[Truly Blessed]

The only problem now is that it works only on my husband. She cries after me... Or she wants him. I don't know... she seems to be more relaxed with him. 

I think it's just a Mammy thing, either they want you all the time, or they simply act differently for others even Daddy's, I have found that no matter what situation Mammy usually gets it more 'full blast' if you like, Sam pushes most of his boundaries with me. Maybe it's as simple as that.x.

x.

[Lollipop86]

I think it's just a Mammy thing, either they want you all the time, or they simply act differently for others even Daddy's, I have found that no matter what situation Mammy usually gets it more 'full blast' if you like, Sam pushes most of his boundaries with me. Maybe it's as simple as that.x.

I agree and couldn't write better myself
I do exactly as my DH does but she won't stay calm. She usually wants him. "I want daddy." And than he comes and does like I did 30 seconds ago and it's fine So now she falls asleep with the door open. And it's OK. I'm just a little worried what will happen when we have some visiters and we talk... But we will deal with this when it happens