quick question about nap length

[AMJ]

Hi ladies. I would like your suggestions on something please.
For the past few days I've been giving DD a longer nap (1hr45m) and trying to keep her day 13.5hrs long. In general her night increased to closer to 10hrs a night and her mood got much better. I've been giving her an earlier nap to be able to give her 5hrs/5hrs15m A before BT. I think that after 1.5hrs of nap she needs about 5hrs evening A and after 1hr45m nap she needs about 5hrs15m A. We had 1 day where she had 1.5hrs nap and a 13.5hrs day and ended up having 10hrs20m night!!!! Yesterday she had 1hr45m nap and a 13.5hr day and had 10hrs50m night but also had 1hr20m NWU. I used to think those NWUs were UT but looking back now at the time when I was cutting her nap to 1hr-1hr15m and her having EWU and those NWU makes me think that they are OT. Although I'm not 100% sure.  Now my dilemma is either sticking to 1hr45m nap and cutting her day from 13.5hrs to 13hrs, or cutting the nap to 1.5hrs and keeping the day 13hrs long or 13.5hrs long. What do you think I should do today? I hope i didn't confuse you

[jessmum46]

Hi hun we may be too late for today, what did you do?

Just out of interest how much does your nap time and bedtime (on the clock) tend to vary right now?  Are you doing set times or is there quite a lot of variation? 

Personally I would shorten the nap and get the day to a 13h max as both of mine have struggled with less than 11h night sleep.  However not all LOs are the same . Whatever you decide I would change one thing at a time, so if you are changing nap length, keep day length the same, or vice versa xx

[AMJ]

Hi Katherine, I cut the nap to 1.5hrs and then kept the day 13hrs long. She was very hyper by dinner so fingers crossed for tonight and the morning.

For the past week or two I've been concentrating on A times to try and figure out what As and nap length would give her more sleep and better mood. DD's WU varied from 4:35am-5:00am when i was cutting her nap really short (1hr-1hr15m) to 5:20-6:10am when she is having a 1.5-2hrs long naps. In the last week her nap started anywhere from 12:15-1:00 pm and BT was anywhere between 7:00-8:00pm. So I would say it varies a lot. Personally I would love to go back to set times but first I need to know what DD needs.

TBH I never was able to read her and never was able to give her the necessary sleep. I just wish I could help her get consistent rest

[jessmum46]

I can see why you're doing that . It's so frustrating isn't it when you feel you are doing all you can and it just doesn't work?

I do think it's worth at some point with toddlers just handing the control over to them though, obviously this has to be when you feel you are ready but a set nap time and bedtime based on your best guess of what they can handle can work wonders.  You kind of have to trust them to get the rest they need when given a sensible opportunity, that doesn't mean every nap will be great or every night will be the same length, but I think that when the goalposts aren't moving they have a chance to actually self-regulate. 

Keep us posted how it's going xx

[AMJ]

Yes yes it is very frustrating and upsetting.

So DD fell asleep at 7:07 pm last night and WU at 5:26am. 10.5hrs is her max at night. But even though she slept the longest she looks pretty tired and her dark circles are really visible today.Yesterday she WU at 6:10am that's why I was able to give her 7pm BT but today I really don't want to do 6:30 BT cause she will be up at 5am. So I don't know what to do today, maybe stick to 1.5hrs nap and give her 13.5hra day or increase the nap to 1hr45m cause the day will be 13.5hrs? The only thing is that she is very tired/hyper way before nap and BT so this makes me think she needs more then 1.5hrs day sleep even though 1.5hr nap gave me the longest 10.5hrs night so far, I have a felling this is just temporary.

Here I wrote out what her day might look with 1.5, 1hr45m and 2grs nap keeping 13.5hrs day

5:26 WU
A(6hrs15m)
11:30 crib
11:45 S(2)

1:45 WU
A(5hrs15)
6:30 crib
7:00 BT

Or
5:26 WU
A(6.5)
11:45 crib
12:00 S(1hr45m)

1:45 WU
A(5hrs15m)
6:30 crib
7:00 BT

Or
5:26 WU
A(7)
12:15 crib
12:30 S(1.5)

2:00 WU A(5)
6:30 crib
7:00 BT



I know what you mean about set times. We used to be on set nap/BT for a longest time cause nothing was working but then her sleep got very bad so I had to go back to Counting As. I think if I can figure this out a bit better I will go back to set times.

[AMJ]

In addition to my last message:
Well today is definitely different. It's her birthday so she had presents and sweets before her nap plus she was looking really tired and hyper so I put her in the crib really early at 11:30am now it's 12:30 and she keeps jumping up and down, screaming for me, damanding to get up etc. She is probably really exited and has a sugar rush or both. She doesn't take  APOP car nap or stroller nap so crib is our only chance.

P. S. I just left her in the crib and she finally passed out at 1pm. What is over excitement or the fact that I put her in the crib really early at 11:30am? I don't know but now if I give her at least 1.5hrs that leaves her with only 4.5hrs of A before BT (she usually needs 5hrs) and a 13.5hrs day. And we had an outing planned to the playground after her nap wich will make her even more OS. She gets OS so easily. Does anybody else's LOs get OS so easy? What do you do about it?
For example, she loves to dance and in December I took her to a ballet class to see if she would follow teacher's instructions. She loved it (and wasn't following any instructions but just dance and danced)but was going crazy after the class and tbh after that day her sleep went down hill till today! She keeps asking me to take her there again and I don't know what to do about it. I would love her to go but I'm scared because I know she will get super OS.

[jessmum46]

Hugs, being excited does really throw things off sometimes doesn't it?  Happy birthday to her

How did the day turn out?  I would have probably done the shorter A to bed, the longer morning hopefully would have meant she didn't struggle to settle.  But you know her best!

I think 11.30am may have been too early, 6h A would have been on the short side for my DD at that age.  Don't underestimate the birthday leap silliness that can happen too. 

How was your night?

[AMJ]

Thanks for the birthday wishes. At the end it wasn't too bad, she was acting hyper by the end of the day but I put her in the crib at 6:15pm and she was asleep by 7:10pm then up at 5:30am. For some reason 1.5hr nap always gives us 10hrs20m long night which is the best in a while but it's always exactly 10hr20m.

Today I'm sticking to 1.5hr nap and 13.5hr day.

[jessmum46]

Good luck, I hope you have a nice day planned and something you can enjoy even if sleep ends up being less than ideal xx

[AMJ]

Thank you

[AMJ]

Hi Eva's mummy. Thanks for your reply. I tried moving her nap later but it seems that  it only makes her OT. Recently I moved her nap a bit earlier, therefore increasing her last A and that seemed to help a bit.
But I will definitely keep your suggestion in mind just in case an earlier nap stops working.

Thanks

[AMJ]

An update:

So just like always after about 3 days of 1.5hr long naps and 10hrs20m long nights she gets more and more OT and then takes ages to fall asleep and is up early. And then I'm back to giving her a long nap cause she is just exhausted, but this time I gave it pretty early at 11:45am , she WU at 5:10am, and then she slept for 1hr50m and woke up on her own at 1:40pm then crib at 6:15 and BT at 7:10. So I thought by giving the nap early this will leave us with a longer A before BT and it could be what she needs but now she is up at 12:40am(usually she is up closer to the end of the night at 2:30 -3:00am) and it took her 2hrs to fall back asleep! Then up for the day at 6:30am. Just 15/20m longer then 1.5hr nap gives a NWU or 8.5/9hr night, but a shorter nap gives Ot and EWU (also 9/9.5hrs night) .... Hmmm which one do I choose?

Maybe I should try a later nap like Eva's mummy suggested but I feel like she needs a longer A before BT. Or maybe give her even earlier nap therefore making the morning A shorter then then evening A? I really don't think there is anything else I could do.

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Sorry, I've been away for ages.  Things have been really hectic here.  Sorry to hear you're still struggling though

So just like always after about 3 days of 1.5hr long naps and 10hrs20m long nights she gets more and more OT and then takes ages to fall asleep and is up early.

I wondered, what makes you think she's getting OT?  I would have thought that after 3 days of good nights and long naps that she'd have caught up on any OT, and any further short nights would be UT.  Certainly Jack would be.  I know you're capping her nap slightly, but if 15/20 minutes more sleep means she takes an hour and a half off her night then she must be right at the maximum of how much day sleep she can have, so I'd be very surprised if she was getting OT from missing that amount of sleep each day. 

When Jack has done this in the past, he's needed a few days to catch up (so three, for your LO), and then when he starts shortening his nights it means he needs a further tweak to maintain a proper amount of tiredness.  I tend put him down for his nap at his normal time if he EW's (so he has a longer first A), and then cap slightly further.  I know that sounds scary, but it's about getting enough tiredness into a well rested toddler to carry it on into the night, without allowing a shortened A, or longer nap to be the way they catch up.  It looks to me like you're in a classic UT/OT loop, where she has short nights, gets OT, catches up with longer naps for 3 days, then shortens her nights due to UT, then gets OT due to the short nights.... 

I'd take from that that a 1.5 hour nap is good for catching up on OT, but too long for every day.  I wouldn't draw any more conclusions than that.  So then you need to cap at less than that to see what works, bearing in mind that it might be she needs her nap capped by quite a bit.  For example, Jack needs to nap for 1hr 20 or more if he's OT, but once he's rested I need to cap at 30 minutes to maintain good nights.  If I let him sleep 1.5 hours for 3 days, and then still let him sleep even an hour on the days after that, we'd be getting short nights due to UT, not OT.

What do you think about it all possibly being due to UT and not OT?

[AMJ]

Hi no worries and thanks

The reason why I think that she is OT is because her behavior is totally different from when she has a long nap. It's hard to explain it but I can see that she is very different. Also when previously cutting her nap to 1hr15 and 1hr she would be just so exhausted that she would just sleep on my shoulder, can't open her eyes, can't sit up, then by the evening just plain hyper. With a long nap she is very sensitive, cries for every little reason, hysterical. It probably sounds very similar to you but it looks very different.

What you are saying totally makes sense to me but she just can't pull through. I'm loosing my mind over this and EWUs are not helping.

[LovelyLilyandJack]

The EW is horrible - we had it for a long long time with both Lily and Jack.  In fact, with Jack I got to the point where I considered a 5.30am WU as fairly standard for a long time and didn't even try and change it cos I wa so sick of thinking about it.  Although he hasn't EW'd regularly for months, I still consider 6am to be a good / normal WU time after such a long spell of EWs.

I guess you are back to her having a long, uncapped nap then.  I'd probably move BT later then, just to get WU after a 9.5hr night at a reasonable time.  I think some LOs here have dropped their nap like that - by keeping a long nap and shortening nights until they could manage without a nap at all.  Maybe you've got one like that   Jack is happier on an uncapped nap and shorter nights too, but his temperament is generally very sunny and chilled, so I can put up with a slightly more grouchy child from capping - he's still a really happy boy.  If he wasn't coping I wouldn't cap either, and some just don't suit capping.  At least with an uncapped nap you'll know she's getting the sleep she needs...