quick question about nap length

[AMJ]

Dear ladies. We are back in Canada now and it seems that DD is getting adjusted to this time zone pretty well. No more NWUs. But the nights are still short and I don't seem to be able to lengthen them with a 45m/30m or even 20m nap. Originally I wanted to have her got to sleep at 8pm therefor her nap should've been around 2/2:30. But she keeps waking up at 5:30am so it's just not happening. How does she know it's 5:30? It seems that doesn't matter were in the world we are she wakes up at 5/5:30am   
It seems that she likes longer morning A (at least 7.5hrs)and shorter evening A but I'm not exactly sure how long. I think that with a 45m nap she used to do 4hrs45m-5hrs/5hrs10m.

Yesterday her day looked like this

5:23 am WU
A(8hrs45m)
2:05 pm S(45m)

2:50 pm WU
A(4.5)
7:23 pm BT

5:23 am WU

What would you do here? She is also so excited to see her family that she just wants to play all the time and doesn't want to nap. But I'm afraid to give a NND because her Bt would be to be at 5:30 pm since she is up at 5:30am and that's very early.  Would you bring her nap back to 1/1:30 and do 7pm BT? Gosh I just want her to drop this nap

[LovelyLilyandJack]

I think you need to do some NNDs I'm afraid.  If you don't think a 5.30 BT will work then I'd just do a normal BT but about 20 minutes earlier than usual.  I know that probably sounds scary, but I found that J wouldn't tack on (partly cos he only needs 11hrs 15 sleep in 24 hrs so we were never going to get a 12hr day/night) so that's what we did and it worked out fine.  He handles OT very well though...  But basically that will wipe her out, then next day she can nap (I'd still only allow around 30-45 minutes though), and use it as a catch up day, and hopefully still sleep well the second night cos she'll be catching up from her NND.  That worked for us for ages.  We did have some very long NNDs after 5.30am WUs, which I know is against usual advice, but if you can't do 5.30 BT / you don't think it'll work then it's another option.  It wouldn't be a long term thing either - just the odd day to try and get some later WUs and therefore shorter days.

What do you think?  Too radical?!

ETA: I was just thinking about how long you've had these short nights and I wonder if it's cos she needs much more of a push than she's had so far? I wonder if doing something extreme might actually be the way to go, cos you might discover it suits her better.

P.s  If you want to continue down the nap route - by the time J needed 7.5hrs morning A , he needed about 5.5hrs after a 30 minute nap and we'd still only get a 10 - 10.5hr night.  Some nights he'd take longer to settle  (unheard of here - he's usually asleep within 5 minutes), and he'd do 6hrs after a 30 minute nap. Just to give you an idea of where your LO might be at.... When we got to that point, we'd AP a nap at 1/ 1.30pm  (after a WU of 6ish usually) and do BT at 7.30.

[AMJ]

thanks LL&J yes it is a extreme change but you might be right. TBH we didn't try 30m and 20m for long enough probably just some random days when she took long time to fall asleep at nap and we couldn't fit a longer nap in. She seems tired after about max 5hrs of evenig A that's why i'm afraid to try a longer A but on the other hand her tired signs have always confused me. She might be just OT from being UT. But thank you for suggestions and we will be trying for another NND!

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Good luck! You could always move her nap a bit earlier  (to 1ish again) and let her  lead it.  If she's tired earlier,  she'll nap, if not then she won't  Though having said that we did have to force NNDs at first cos J would always nap ok, but then EW the next day.  But I think your LO will refuse a nap on less morning A time if she's not tired, won't she?

[AMJ]

Yes she might refused it Ithe nap is too early but she might just take a long time to fall asleep.
Darn yesterday she had a 9hrs morning A then 3 then 4hrs A and BT at 7. Today is up at 5 so now it's even harder to do a NND. I'll try tomorrow, hopefully she'll have a better WU

Thanks

[AMJ]

Hi yesterday I was brave and did NND. She was up at 5:40 am so I thought "this was the best WU in a while so I should do it today." For BT she fell asleep in 10m! (BT 5:40/45pm)Last time she fell asleep so fast was probably a year ago. And I heard her at 5:25am ( although I have a feeling she WU earlier and was laying queitly). But she slept from 5:40/45 to 5:25ish!!!! That's amazing!!!!!

Today I'm gonna try for a nap but I'm not sure how long to give her. I know you said 30-45m but few weeks ago I tried for 45-1hr and she was barely making it to BT after that. So I'm debating if I should give a longer nap or not since it was few weeks back so by now she might need less. I think last time we decided to give a 1.5hr nap after a NND. I just can't decide what to do. What do you think?

Anyways thanks for you advice LL&J!!!! How often should I offer NNDs? Every other day, every 2 days? And didU/do you kids sleep about 11hrs at night after a nap day?

[lolsyb1982]

We had a NND yesterday too and because of the decent night she had all I allowed was 20mins at about 1.45. If we'd stayed at home she'd have gone for another NND I think but she had to go in the car and it's a guarantee she'll fall asleep in there.

I would try 30mins after a NND and see how she goes. Although probably too late for today now? How'd it go?

[AMJ]

Hi Lauren, it was too late but thanks anyways! Gives me an idea for next time. Although I think your DD is more LSN then my DD since yours can handle 2 NNDs in a row. My DD was pretty tired all morning even after an amazing night. I gave her from 1:00/05 to 2:25. She fell asleep for BT at 7:50 and now I'm scrated that it was too long of a nap and she will either have a NWU or an EWU. Not sure what to do with her day tomorrow either.

[LovelyLilyandJack]

How did you get on?  I would probably stick with a shorter nap after a NND, but seeing as you're at the start of the 1-0 it'lll take a bit of trial and error I expect.  It sounds like she handled the NND really well though   If you're doing NNDs more often you can experiment a bit with nap lengthen the following day.  If you had a short night after that long nap, that probably says that you need to try something shorter as a recovery nap next time.  If she had a long night after that long nap then probably you got it spot on   We started off doing uncapped naps after NNDs but J will only sleep up to 11.5hrs in 24, so it wasn't long before the naps were taking away from the nights and leaving him more OT overall.

WRT how often to do a NND, I'd move your nap a bit earlier and let her lead the way if you can.  If she's not tired, then she won't nap, so you get a NND.  If she is, then she'll nap earlier and you get a nap day.  Having said that, J needed more direction as he'd EW if he napped too early or too late, so we ended up with a really small nap window which he would more often than not nap in, and then take ages to setttle at night / EW.  So with him I started off with a NND every 2-3 days and increased to every other day, then every 2 days etc., until naps started giving less sleep overall in 24 hours, at which point I stopped offering a nap cold turkey.  Basically, as soon as he started taking longer to settle at BT, or doing a shorter night following a nap day I increased the frequency of NNDs so we were maintaining 11hr nights as a minimum.  Does that make sense?!

[AMJ]

Thanks for explaining everything! It all makes complete sense.

DD had only a 9hr night after a NND With a WU at 5am so I know that 1hr20m nap was way too long. Next time ill try 1hr and then 45m. The only thing now I can't really give another NND today cause 5am WU means she would need a 5pm BT and that's way too early. now I need to try and bring her WU closer to 5:45/6:00am cause she only can handle 12hrs of A on a NND.

Thank you!

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Yes, 5am is a very early start for a NND! Hopefully if you go back to shorter naps again you'll get a more reasonable WU again. Definitely worth keeping those NNDs coming I reckon

[AMJ]

Thank you!

[AMJ]

Hi ladies

Need you help ASAP.

DD has a NND yesterday from 5:45am WU and 5:53 pm BT. At 3:50am she woke up crying our "mommy" but as soon as she was awake she wasn't crying.( she had her 10hrs of sleep so it's just too bad it happened when she got most of her sleep).She WU crying for me a day ago but that was after a nap day( bad dream?). So today I have no clue what to do with her day?? 3:50am start!!!!!!! We had 4am WUs during 2-3 transition and believe me it's not fun. HELP when to offer a nap, for how long and when BT?

We still didn't figure out the length of a nap that she needs after a NND. Last time I gave her 50m after a NND but she was quiet tired after it so I'm not sure if it was too short or too long. That night she had a 1hr40m NWU but again I'm not sure if it was just because of a bad dream or something else like OT or UT.

[jessmum46]

Yowsers, I'm sorry hun, that is early.  I have to ask...what do you do when she wakes that early?  Do you try to resettle?  At least keep her in her room until an acceptable WU time?  Do you have a gro clock, I'd strongly suggest one if not.  I honestly wouldn't know what to do with the day, play it by ear is all I can say really as she will likely be seriously tired

[AMJ]

I keep her in the crib till at least 5:30/6am. Resettling never works so I go in to check if she has a leaky/poopy diaper etc, tell her it's night time and she needs to go back to sleep, and sing a sleepy song. I did that twice today. Then she called me at 5:10 and I did the same thing. Since we recently  moved and are staying at my parent's for a visit I still didn't unpack her gro clock. I should do that thanks for the reminder.

Would you offer an uncapped nap? But it could be 2+hrs