quick question about nap length

[AMJ]

I see. We only get tired signs before nap. Sometimes before BT but they are not reliable at all. It never ends

[AMJ]

the day after a bad night, do you offer a longer nap or stick to 1hr?

[LovelyLilyandJack]

It could be that her nap is still too long.  Even lily, who was only on the low side of average sleep needs, was only doing 45 minutes nap at this age, and about to start on NNDs. Jack would nap every day if I let him, but to get good night's he needs 2-3 NNDs a week and only 20-30 minutes when he does nap.

If we have a short night I offer the same nap at the same time as normal so he regulates at night and doesn't use the nap to catch up.

[AMJ]

I was thinking maybe to cut her nap to 1hr now. I will try it next. And yes so far I kept her nap at the same time like you.

I can't believe Jack is down to 20/30m.

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Yeah, he's definitely LSN! 

Let us know how you get on x

[AMJ]

Thanks I will

[AMJ]

Hello ladies.

Im back here for the same reason as the last time. Nothing changed since then, nothing! I'm at loss. DD is still having 9/9.5 hrs nights and is really OT. I've tried 1hr nap, 1hr10m, 1hr15m but at the very first day it seems to work and give us a 10hr night but the next day her OT accumulates and her night becomes 9.5hrs then 9hrs. Then I give her either a 1.5hr long nap(which would previously just help her catch up a bit but few days ago it resulted in 2hr long chatty NWU) or a nap of as long as she wants to sleep.

Also this past Sunday we had Daylight Savings time and her day became something like this:
WU 5:50am instead of 4:50
Crib at 1:30 and asleep at 1:45/1:55

WU around 3:00 ish or a bit earlier depending on a nap length I'm trying.
Crib 7:15/7:30
BT 8:00 ish 8:15

Today she woke up at 4:55am (back to her old WU) Her BT yesterday was 7:55 and she napped for 1hr10m . )

She is so tired when I try to wake her from her nap  that I'm just not able to do it. After opening the door to her room I turn off her white noise and play music in the hole way to help her come to her senses but she just turns around and goes back to sleep which would never happen before.

I don't know what else to do. Nothing
is working. The nights are short, she is miserable, I need sleep too. HELP
I end up leaving her in the crib in the morning for 1hr at least and poor thing is so bored there. She calls me sometimes and when I tell her that it's not time to get up she gets so upset and I don't blame her. I've been very consistent at keeping her in the crib when she has an EWU but she never ever resettled back to sleep. If she is up she is up.

What else can I do? How is it possible that nothing works. I can't believe it .

P.S. I just read 1-0 Transition post on here and it seems that we've tried everything but 1 thing:
"* If LO is sleeping a short night due to the 1-0 try shifting the nap earlier in order to make A time to BT longer. This can work well for LOs who can't deal with a shorter nap."

I don't completely understand how this might help though. This still keeps her day the same length right? So BT is at the same time and I let her nap for as long as she wants? Plus I thought that if the nap is too early it will reinforce the EWU(although she wake early even with a later nap). We've tried giving her a long nap and moving the BT later but she can't quiet handle it and still has either a NWU or EWU. Also I've given her an earlier nap( by 10/15m) but does the above advice mean giving a much earlier nap?
Thanks

[LovelyLilyandJack]

(((hugs)))  It's horrible when you get a long spell of EWing.  We've had it with both children and in the past I've thought I'd go mad hoping that one day I'd sleep til 6am!

I would try an earlier nap, yes, and probably an earlier BT too.  Her days must be very long with this EWing, which is probably leaving her OT by the end of the day, no matter what you do with the nap.  It's hard to know what to do with the nap length since nothing is really working for you, but maybe something like:

WU:  5am
Nap: 12 - 1.30 at the latest
BT: Asleep by 6.30 / 6.45?  Try and aim for at least 5 hrs A after the nap, but a day length as close to 13 hours as you can.  Most people say 12 hours really, but that's never worked for Jack as he's never done more than 11 hrs at night.  With him, I work on 13hr day being a minimum, and 13.5 as a maximum as a regular day length.

I know an early night is really scary after so many EWs, but if Jack is OT he needs a long nap AND an early BT to catch up.  Longer term, if you get WU to a reasonable time, you could try a nap window of 1-2pm or something.  I find Jack now needs 5 hrs A to bed after a 30 minute nap, so you might need to set a time by which your LO has to be awake from a nap in order to preserve BT, and then figure out nap length from that.  It's just trial an error I'm afraid.  But she does sound OT, so I'd try and earlier nap and shortened day to address that first.  Then we can look at getting a decent day length (13.5hrs max) and figure out nap length from that.

What do you think?

[AMJ]

Thanks for your support!!! It really means a lot to me!

TBH I don't want to shift her day back by 1hr. I totally agree with you about giving her an earlier nap and an EBT to catch her up but I definitely don't want to shift the day back because in the long run it will be back to what it was. What do you think I will give her an early nap at 1-2:30 and then BT at 7:30? I mean its still early to her (30m earlier)and she doesn't know there was a time change, right.

Yesterday I tried giving her an EBT and had her in the crib at 7:15pm but she didn't fall asleep till 7:55pm but I think today with a longer nap she might.

An I think she also needs about 5hrs of A before BT.

Thank you!!!!!!!!!

[LovelyLilyandJack]

I can totally understand not wanting to shift BT too early. I've been there myself, and cos J doesn't tack on beyond 11 hrs  (11.5 if he's really tired and the planets are aligned), I tend to stick to a normal BT plus or minus 30 minutes too. But sometimes you don't know til you try!

I  think your plan sounds good  - maybe give her a day to catch up on that routine and then aim for 5hrs A after her nap as a minimum from then on. I'd still try and have an eye on her day length, in that she'd probably do better with a  capped nap than a really long day, but I'm sure you will make a sensible call on that,  knowing what suits her best.

The other thing you could try is a gro clock. Sorry, I can't remember if I mentioned or asked about that before but that's really helped with jacks EWing. I was really strict about setting a get up time  (as opposed to a wake up time) with Jack, but the clock worked where that didn't.  Might be worth a go?

[AMJ]

Gosh, lol I don't remember last time DD had an 11hr night!

So yesterday didn't go as planned at all. DH didn't wake her after 1.5hrs of nap and when I got home and woke her it was 3:18pm (she fell asleep at 1:05pm) so her nap was 2hrs13m. Then crib at 7:40pm and BT at 8:25pm. And her last A ended up being just a bit over 5hrs. Then she slept through the night (yey) and was up at 5:55 am.

For today I'm thinking offering her a nap at around 1pm again and maybe giving her 1.5hrs??? so up at 2:30pm  and BT at 7:30/8pm? what do you think. The nap would be then 30 earlier then her usual 1:30 so basically following the advice from the 1-0 transition thread.

With regards to a gro clock we tried it but it didn't work much. There are few problems I encounter with it. First if I set it for lets say 7am cause that gives DD an 11hr night and she wakes at 5:30/6am there is no way she will stay in the crib for that long. Also she usually has a bowel movement as soon as she wakes so letting her lay in a dirty diaper for so long is uncomfortable. But getting her washed and changed with a minimum light and then trying to get her back to crib is next to impossible. She is potty trained during the day but wears a diaper at night and for the nap. I know I should be getting her up as soon as she wakes to get her on the potty but with these EWUs I never was able to got her to the potty on time in the mornings. After the nap when I wake her she is so grumpy that I also can't get the to sit on the potty in time because she refuses it and cries so she ends up peeing in the diaper. TBH I don't even know how to teach her to go on the potty first thing in the morning and after the nap. She doesn't even have a clue that that's what she needs to do because we couldn't practice that. 

[jessmum46]

The key to the gro clock is setting a realistic and achievable goal. So if she is waking for the day at 5am, set the clock at 5/5.10am to begin with.  If she has to wait an hour straight off it will never work.  Enforce the time, do not go in or respond at all unless proper 'I need you' and then when lights on respond immediately to a call with lights, excitement, hooray!!! Once she gets that, creep the time forward 5-10 mins and hold until she is making that time comfortably.  Etc etc until desired WU . Fwiw my DD will often call for the toilet before lights on. We take her straight there with minimal fuss and she goes straight back to bed to wait for the light. Even if she doesn't sleep the principle is there. You could do same with a nappy change if you think it's really necessary

[AMJ]

It looks like I was doing it all wrong this whole time. I will try it the proper way!

With regards to potty training in the am, do you think I should get her up right away as soon as she wakes up and get her to sit down on the potty and wait till she is done., then return her to the crib? Or just not worry about her going on the potty at that time at all and just let her go in the diaper?
Thanks

[jessmum46]

Good luck with the clock, honestly if you can get it working it is magic!  Dad will now wait ageeeeeesssss for the clock to come on, whereas at the beginning a few mins was all she'd manage without calling.  You may need to do some WIWO or just calling out 'it's night time, wait for Mr Sunshine' to reinforce the message but hopefully it will really pay off and get you all some better sleep

The potty thing is tricky, but as day and night dryness is a different thing I wouldn't be rushing her to the potty as soon as she wakes.  That interaction at an EW may be enough to prolong it and discourage a return to sleep.  I would however make it clear to her that if she wakes up and needs to pee/poop she can call you to use the potty.  When DD was younger we used to actually take the potty into her room in the (almost) dark, sit her on then straight back into bed.  Now we walk her to the bathroom but she still goes back in her room until WU time. 

You could start taking her to the potty when you get up for the day even if she has already been in her diaper.  Just to encourage the habit? 

[AMJ]

Thank you! And that's very true that getting her to go to the potty at EWU can make things worth. I'll stick with offering the potty when it's ok to get up. Thanks a bunch