He never seems to completely konk out!

[*foxy*]

Hi

DS is 7mo. Has MPI and EBF so both of us are df. Taking weaning slowly as not sure what's going to upset his tummy. Atm things seem fine it that area - normal poos!

His routine is:

Awake 6.15-6.30 bf
Breakfast 7.30
Nap 9.15 (after school run)
Awake 10.30-10.45 bf
Lunch 12
Nap 1/1.15
Awake 2.30/2.45 bf
Tea 4.30
Try for a CN at 5 doesn't always happen but at least have some quiet time for half an hour
BT 7 bf

My problem is is he only has those good naps bc Im with him! He'll wake after 30-40mins, sometimes 20 and he'll need a cuddle or to suck my finger to go back to sleep. I'm working on getting him to independently sleep - he used to feed to sleep last week but I've stopped that now. Now he has a cuddle until drowsy, put in cot/bed and I pop his thumb in his mouth. This is quite new so it doesn't always work but it's getting better. I'm trying to put him in his cot more awake but it's going slowly.

At night he'll wake about 3-4 times between 7 and 10. And then after that about every 1.5 hours. He just doesn't seem to ever properly go into a deep sleep. Is he very OT maybe? Or just very dependent on me? He's very cuddly, loves contact and social interaction.

I'm not sure how to fix this. Even if he woke twice in the night - that would be great!!

[katie80]

Hi there, I think it may be a combination of prop and a UT/OT loop.  At 7mo, I would expect him to have an A time of around 3hr, maybe a touch more. He's sort of doing that in the morning, but maybe not always and even with your help the nap is not always a full one (naps of 1h15min are often UT at this age). His second A time is also short at not quite 3hr. So, as you're working on independent sleep, I'd start pushing those A times out to 3hr and just get rid of the CN (he can still have a rest if you think he needs it, but hopefully with the longer As and more restorative naps he'll manage better in the early evening).

How do you settle him at night? How many times are you feeding?

[Ima shel Alon]

It sounds to me like UT actually and not OT. His A times are just too short for his age.
In the morning you don't even get a full 1.5h nap out of him and before his second nap he is doing 2.5h A time, which would be suitable more for a 5m old, not a 7m old.
I would work on gradually increasing A times. The first A time needs just like 10min more for now to see if that helps. The second A time I would increase by 10-15min every 3-4 days till you are at at least 3h A time.

NW are often connected to the first A time of the day (don't ask me why) so I think the frequent NW might be connected to the shortish A time he has in the morning.

Because of the big change you did transitioning from BF to sleep to not I think it's ok you are with him but you should start and work in the next few days and leave him to fall asleep by himself and as well to stay asleep. If he refuses the nap, wakes up too early from a nap or wakes up at night you can use PU/PD for that.

LOL, posted with Katie

[*foxy*]

Ok great. Thanks. The school runs are tricky to work around - not the first one but the pick up at 3.15. We have to leave at 3. I did a 3 hour A time today and he did a 1.5 hour first nap. Did another 3 hour A time after that and he did an hour on his own. Hes had a 20 CN also.

So if I do a nap at 9.30am - hopefully with a 1.5 hr nap time, then up for 3 hours. I can only squeeze in a 1 hour (2-3pm) nap before needing to pick up my dd from school. Would I then need a CN later on?

At night I try to settle him in his cot, if that doesn't work I pick him up until he's calm then put him back in his cot and help him find his thumb - stroke his back until asleep. If he's still not settling then I feed him. I do co-sleep with him as he wakes so often. I can feed him maybe 5 a night sometimes.

[katie80]

Oh, that darn school run! I've BTDT! Yes, you may have to try for a short (15-20min) CN to get through to BT, or pull BT earlier. What's your mode of transportation? Any chance he would drop back off to sleep on the way?

[*foxy*]

I know! It's so hard trying to organise things around it! I walk if the weather lets me. He won't go back to sleep in his pushchair once he's awake Im afraid.

He was up at 6 today so nap is at 9 - he was ready for it

[*foxy*]

If he's napping 2-3 and I'm having to wake him for the school run - he needs a CN doesn't he? 20 mins? Or at least some quiet time? As BT is usually 7pm so 3-7 is quite a long A time before bed don't you think?

[goldmom]

3-7 is a pretty typical stretch for my LO before bed, though occasionally I do bring it to 6:45 (or on the rare occasion of two terrible naps it'll be 6:30). The cn is usually refused by my LO.

[*Liz*]

I think 3 naps can really backfire at this age, even if they are not perfect naps, unless your LO is HSN.

Obviously it can be really hard to know if they are low or high SN when they are rubbish sleepers though  .

You certainly have some dependence issues though  . Obviously  . I know it hasn't been an easy one for you, and it was nice to see your post as I was wondering how you were a few days ago  .

[weaver]

I think 3 naps can really backfire at this age, even if they are not perfect naps, unless your LO is HSN.

Totally agree.  I would shoot for an EBT if you need to rather than a CN, maybe 6.30 ish.

Glad to hear about the normal poos! 

[*foxy*]

Thank you for thinking of me Liz   went off the radar whilst trying to get to the bottom of why he was so unsettled. Think we know now for sure but weaning is a bit of a minefield.

Yes. Definite dependence issues. I guess I'd like to know how to a) help him take a good nap without me and b) help him to not rely on a feed or cuddling to sleep during the night.

I'll aim for 2 good naps in the day then. Would you start with trying for better sleep during the day or the night? In terms of him being more independent?

[katie80]

I'll aim for 2 good naps in the day then. Would you start with trying for better sleep during the day or the night? In terms of him being more independent?

I think it's always easiest to start with daytime, as you're already awake and have a bit more patience. Plus, if you get him independent during the day, some of that may follow through to the nights (although my experience is that at this age, you'll probably have to do some work overnight too, but hopefully it will be easier if he's used to you settling from the daytime).

I guess I'd like to know how to a) help him take a good nap without me and b) help him to not rely on a feed or cuddling to sleep during the night.

I think what you're doing is a good start. Now, like Noa mentioned earlier, you need to work on reducing your help a bit and getting out of the room. So, try to put him down before he's fully calm and get him to settle more in the crib on his own, etc etc. Have you read the PUPD guidelines? How to PU/PD (inc age adaptations)

[*foxy*]

Thanks Katie. I'll work on independent sleep during the day. If he wake a early say 30-40 mins in, I'll try the same as I did for getting him to sleep but what if that doesn't work? Do I get him up and then try another nap say 2 hours later?

He was up at 5.30am this morning managed to keep him very quiet until 6.10.

[katie80]

If he wake a early say 30-40 mins in, I'll try the same as I did for getting him to sleep but what if that doesn't work? Do I get him up and then try another nap say 2 hours later? 

Yes, try to resettle for about 15-20min... usually you can tell if it's going to work in that time frame. The A time after a short nap depends on the baby. I'd start with 2hr as a minimum, but it may be closer to 2.5. It takes a bit of guesswork, but hopefully you won't have to do that too much!

[*foxy*]

Thanks Katie. He's had a 3 hour A time this morning. Followed by a 1 hour nap - no intervention from me tried resettling but he was wide awake and having none of it. I'll just see how it goes for his second nap I guess?