in desperate need of sleep

[jesie]

Hi ladies. I haven't been here for about 2 yrs! But I am back and desperate!

B is 24 months and does not sleep.
Right now at 10.07pm I rocking him crying in his pushchair!!!
It took an hour to get him off from 7pm-8pm and this is the second time he's woken and need rocking back.
I will transfer him to his bed... Where he will either wake straight away or after an hour or so and the only way to get him back off again is just to climb and go to sleep with him!!!

It's been 2 yrs and I am broken.

On Thursday he is moving bedrooms. New room, New bed, New rules.
I will NOT be getting into this new bed!
He will go to bed in his bed.

But.... We also have G, he's coming up 5yrs so really needs aleepbfor school cos he's exhausted! Unis the reason I haven't done proper sleep training, just purely because I don't want to wake him!

But I am at the point now, where I have just told DH to bring ear plugs back from work in the Hope G may wear them and stay asleep!!!

So... How do I do it? Sleep training G was easy. he was a baby! He slept perfectly once we trained him using shhh pat.
This stubborn toddler is NOT going to be easy.
I could actually cry of fear of what's to come! It's not going to ve pretty, so how do I do it?

Please help.

[Truly Blessed]

Hello Honey,

Bless you, that sounds tough. I am certain Gradual Withdrawal method would work best for him. Here's a link for you to read.

Walk In/Walk Out vs. The Gradual Withdrawal Method (HOW TO CHOOSE)

Your little fella will be able to do this, as long as you are ready and remain resolute throughout. So here's how to start on the first night. Put a chair next to his bed, and sit side on to him. Choose a sleepy phrase for eg: "Sleepy time Darling" and stick with using only those words, you will use them more at first to re-assure him but try not to over use, don't enter into conversation with him at all, and avoid eye contact whenever possible. Before you start get yourself some ear plugs too, this may sound harsh, but Tracy recommended it in order than you can ST through, because the tone of a child crying can make you crack, you can still hear enough, it just helps, and the important thing to remember is that even if he seems broken hearted you are there with him, he is not being abandoned to handle this on his own, he will be fine. I did it myself and I am a big fan of GW. He will no doubt protest and stand up or try and get out of bed. Presuming he is in a bed not a crib? TBH this is pretty relevant so I will wait for you to get back to me on that one before we discuss further.

The aim of the game is to wait until he is asleep, then you wait a good 15 minutes until you are sure he is in a deep enough sleep before leaving, otherwise he will probably pop up and you have to start again. At night wakings you repeat exactly the same process.

Is he still napping? if so you do the same for naps, or whoever is with him can do it.

As Lo gets used to you being in the chair next to him, you then move the chair further away and then turn your back and then eventually you will be at the door/standing in the door with it ajar and then you're outside, job done. I would imagine the kick back on the first couple of nights to be quite strong because of how things stand at the moment, but he will get the message with total consistency.

Can you post his routine please, it would be good to look over it to make sure there's no issues there.

I am excited for you Sweetie, it is a fantastic feeling when you have a plan, and you already exhausted so a few more days is nothing in the big scale of things.

How about using white noise for your 5 year old to help him sleep through 

I'll wait for you reply and answer to the questions then I'll be back Hun.x.

[jesie]

Thank you so much for your reply!

I was planning the GW... Just wasn't sure how about to do it!

doing it with a chair is fab advice. I will put a chair in there when that will be "mummies chair". Sounds like an excellent starting point, and makes it clear from the start that I won't get in the bed too so hopefully he will understand a little better.

I am fully expecting bad times, but hearing it is good and reassuring that we will be heading in the right direction and Will help me get through.

He is in a bed.

He kind of naps, he can nap for 40 mins or 2 hours.
At the moment he is fighting a sleep, but then like today fell asleep on the school run, so he does need it. We tried no day to try and help night sleep... But it makes no difference.

His routine.... Up anywhere between 5.30 and 6.30am (usually before 6)
Has a nap at 11/11.30am, lunch when he wakes.
Bed at 7pm

We are starting Thursday because I am off work until Wednesday, giving me 7 nights to be firm and consititent before DH has to do bed time routine on Wednesday.... FC we have improvements by then.

[Truly Blessed]

Hi Hun,

I think with the chair next to him he may be okay, but it's a little trickier with a LO in a bed. The choices are this:

If he keeps getting up, return him to bed without eye contact and use your sleepy phrase. This however in my opinion can be the drawn out way of doing things and is definitely harder work  . If it were me (IIWM) I would be inclined to leave him if he gets out of bed, see what he does, use the sleepy phrase and if necessary tell him "Back to bed please" so he knows the expectation. It may be that once he realises you aren't going to enter into conversation and you are staying on your chair, he will lie back down himself. The problem with the returning to bed is, it's a battle of wills and it is giving the LO attention, so you have to keep going until you crack it, which may be after your back is aching and your blood pressure is about to blow Do you see my point   

I have know LO's lie down and sleep on the floor rather than give in, and you know what that's okay, you can just transfer to the bed when they pass out exhausted usually  .

What's your thoughts on this 

It may be that he doesn't even get out, but obviously this is a head's up so you have a plan whatever happens. Also you won't be able to let him out of the room, so if he goes to do that you would have to return him to bed or stand in the door, unless you have a baby gate there 

WRT his routine, I'm guessing it's hard to say if he is low/average or high sleep needs at the moment  or not 

Typically a LO of his age would be having an 11 hour night and up to a 2 hour nap, or over all sleep around 12.5 to 13 hours if they are ASN. While you're ST naps are going to be dependent of what happened the night before and how much sleep he gets, but I would certainly cap at 2 hours max, no matter what as it will encourage him to be tired enough at night and could help with a bit of luck. Remember to do things exactly the same for naps as at BT, this means by day 2 he has already done it twice and will be getting the idea  hopefully lol   

Any more questions don't hesitate to ask Hun  I am at work on a Thursday evening unfortunately, but I will check Friday morning to see how it went.

Everything crossed for you 

x.

[jesie]

Hi. Thank you very much for your reply!
I read it last night when I finished work, but it was too late to reply, but it was all taken on board!

Pleas excuse Me if I don't answer all your questions, but this is now the 4th time in writing this, it's keeps crashing for some reason!!!

So this evening...
At 6.50pm we got out the bath. Put on PJ'S and sand the good night song.
Went to bed. This was not really appreciated. He wanted to go down stairs into his pushchair, but after 10mins of "arguing" me saying "night night baby" no eye contact etc, him shouting "away" and "dada" he finally excepted his milk.
I had my chair up by the head of the bed. First of all he just laid there, for about 10 minutes, before he realised he could move... Jump/run around the bed/room. He spent the next hour having so fun, laughing in my face whilst I carried out rapid return.

Then I thought, the only place he has EVER settle himself is in his pushchair (and car) where he is strapped in.
So I adjusted him and "pinned" him down whilst stroking his face and shhhh'ing.
He is now REALLY angry!  I hsvebtwo arms full of scratches and pinch marks, and He is angry screaming and all sweaty and horrid.

I pass him a drink. He drink the whole cup! He then lays back, hits his chest like a gorilla and falls asleep!

Now I need to go to bed before he wakes again.
It's the night time ones I am properly worried about
. At 7pm I have energy and Will power, at rubbish o'clock, I just want to sleep!

[jesie]

First night done....
He woke at 3am! That's VERY late for him!
He didn't even ask me to get into bed. He just led there and accepted I was going to sit on my chair.
I tucked him in, said good night and Sat down. I was back in my bed at 3.25!
He woke again at 5.10am!!!
We got up at this point as G was already up because its his birthday!.

So I would say night one was successful.
Will wait to see night two when it's sunk in a little.

[*Liz*]

Sounds like an amazing start  . I haven't had to ST a toddler myself and the thought makes me queasy as well, but oh so often we hear stories on here of how things have gone much better than expected. I think you being ready and being consistent is the key  .

I worry about people waking each other in my house as well - my older 2 need sleep etc etc. But in my experience it is rarely as bad as expected yk? I recently decided to get that bottle making machine for babies, and all the reviews say the beep is too loud and wakes everyone. It IS loud, but again, even at 6am it hasn't woken a child that wasn't ready to get up already. And I find if crying etc does wake someone up it is easy to reassure and get them back to bed. Audio stories or music at bedtime can muffle the sounds from one room to another in a grown up way. I do that with DD (4.5) to stop her being disturbed by DS1 going to bed 45 mins later. She just falls asleep with it on.

Strength for tonight 

[Truly Blessed]

Wow wow wow!!!! Not to sound patronising, but I am very proud of you! Not only did you take an awful lot on night one calmly, you used your Mother's Instinct with regards to (WRT) putting pressure on him, and you were right, he obviously needed that, well done Hun, really. Like I said, it was never going to be a smooth ride, but I agree that all things considered that is a really good result for night one

The NW was much better than I would have expected, so hallelulah for that. I think we are all the same, the NW are the hardest, they certainly were for me, but my pure determination and the thought of sleeping through the night go me through .

Are you going to start out tonight with the method that helped him last night, or wait and see how it goes, just sitting in the chair first  then put some pressure on him if needed 

Happy Birthday to G  Did he sleep through the noise do you know 

Sending lots of good luck vibes for today Hun.x.

[jesie]

Thank you.
I actually feel quite motivated and like there is hope in sight today, so I really hope it continues.

He really understood that I wasn't allowed in his bed and this morning when we went into his room he pointed at the chair smiling saying mumma mumma, so he is obviously happy about it at the moment.

I think tonight I will try just sitting on the chair, but obviously not for as long, maybe 20-30 minutes as that is the way I would like him to go, so I think maybe giving him the chance may help him understand that actually if I lay here myself, I can go to sleep, especially as that's how he went to sleep at 3.00am.

I think on my side is my hitting breaking point and realising that actually this needs to be done and it needs to be done now.

Knowing there is someone here to listen and help is a masssive help too so Thank you very much! The support is very much needed!!!

G did sleep, with his ear plugs bless him, but he slept

[jesie]

Thanks Liz.
I would imagine it wouldn't be too long before the beeping just became a standard noise in the house, so hopefully will just get ignored by the others.

Yes stereo is a good idea. He has one in his room.
FC we won't need it. But if he does, then I will do that

He did stay up for a bit last night, but he's Soooo tired come bed time he had to go to bed. Being so tired us the ear plugs may be enough he is a good sleeper (I sleep trained him as a tiny baby and always stuck to a routine with him).

[Truly Blessed]

this morning when we went into his room he pointed at the chair smiling saying mumma mumma, so he is obviously happy about it at the moment.

Oh that is so cute, clever boy is getting the idea already

I think tonight I will try just sitting on the chair, but obviously not for as long, maybe 20-30 minutes as that is the way I would like him to go

Sorry Hun, could you explain this more, do you mean you're thinking of leaving after that long  If so, that's not how GW works, you really need to stay until he asleep, and then you can move further away, working on getting out of the door for independent sleep. Apologies if I'm misunderstanding.x.

[jesie]

No sorry. I meant stay in the room, but stay on the chair for that long, before holding down the duvet. I didn't really want to do that thought ibwpuod Gove him a chance to realise that actually he is expected to go to sleep whilst I sit on the chair.
Does that make sense? Sorry if not. I find it difficult as this site just crashes my internet and I lose everything I have written so I write fast to get in there before it crashes and I lose it all and then like now I. writtong fast and this is the 3rd time I. writing too!

So tonight, we went into the bedroom after bath. Put on pj s etc and got into bed at 6.55pm
He had his milk then started chatting with his elf (fav cuddly toy) I said its night time baby. He went quiet
He then somehow whilst laying quietly, raised a little arm and I could see a torch light being shone aroinfld the room. so I took it off him and said its night time
He got out of bed 3 times. Each time I said its bed time now. The first two he got back into bed himself. The third time I put him back.
Whilst I tucked him in I said shall I hold your blanket down to help you sleep or will you stay in the bed? He pointed at my.chair.
I said I mean it, you stay on bed and go to bed. and Sat back on my chair.

He chatted a hit more. I said " bed time now"
He started to kick the wall. I left him as it wasn't a kick it was a gentle attention tap, and he went to sleep.
I stayed on my chair to make sure he was asleep and left the room at 7.44!!!!

Couldn't believe it!

We are however already on the first wake up.
11.35 I tucked him in and Sat on my chair. Untried to leave at 11.55 as he had been snoring a while and he woke. So I just say back down. I didn't go over to him, just whispered shhhhhh.

Yes snoring again now as been a while so I will try and return back to bed now.

I hope this all makes sense. My apologies if it doesn't!

[Truly Blessed]

No sorry. I meant stay in the room, but stay on the chair for that long, before holding down the duvet. I didn't really want to do that thought ibwpuod Gove him a chance to realise that actually he is expected to go to sleep whilst I sit on the chair.

Perfect totally agree.x.

Sorry if not. I find it difficult as this site just crashes my internet and I lose everything I have written so I write fast to get in there before it crashes and I lose it all and then like now I. writtong fast and this is the 3rd time I. writing too!

Oh no, that is sooo frustrating, I had that once years ago too, but I never did find out why, I can ask admin and see if they have any ideas. When I write a long post I always right click and copy as I go, in case I lose it, which occasionally happens when I go to preview or post, is that what's happening?

Fabulous result for the 2nd night, you are both doing so well How many NW were there  he's doing really well in the night  when sleepy isn't he!?

Keep it up Sweetie, there is so much sleep on the horizon for you 

x.

[jesie]

I think it mainly crashes because I am on my phone? Not sure. but yes I have started to copy too, but you just never know when it is going  crash. I don't even dare to preview.

So night two. He woke twice. Once at 11.35pm  I tucked him, said goodnight and was back in bed at 12.24. The second time was at 2.40 and I was back in bed at 2.55 this time though, I just went in, said shhhhh and Sat on my chair, then made sure he was tucked in once asleep. I thought I don't want to give him attention etc, I want him to realise he can do it himself.
G woke/fell out of bed at 5.15 which woke up B.

Night three, last night, I feel a little cheat. he was so so tired! We had the family round all day for G's birthday so coke tea time we were really fighting to keep B awake! He was in bed at 6.35 and I had left him by 6.48.  He sleppt until 2.22, I tried to just say ahhh and sit on my chair but he cried, so I went over to him and tucked him in, made him comfy and he went straight off. I was back in bed at 2.37  (but couldn't sleep until gone 4 *yawn*)  he then woke at 5.30 again thanks to G.   I am hoping now the birthday is over, G will calm down and sleep properly again too

On a positive note. Before I moved my chair in from the landing into the bedroom, b pointed at it and said mumma, I said mumma sit out there on the chair? And he said yes! So I did, expecting to have to move closer and he was fine! Maybe cos he was tired? Or maybe out there is ok??? We will find out tonight!
I can't believe how well he is doing!
We have made such a fuss of him being so clever, he's so happy and his face beams!

[Truly Blessed]

On a positive note. Before I moved my chair in from the landing into the bedroom, b pointed at it and said mumma, I said mumma sit out there on the chair? And he said yes! So I did, expecting to have to move closer and he was fine! Maybe cos he was tired? Or maybe out there is ok??? We will find out tonight!
I can't believe how well he is doing!
We have made such a fuss of him being so clever, he's so happy and his face beams!

Oh my goodness, that is absolutely fantastic It sounds like he is thriving in his new found independence, that is above and beyond

All of that wonderful praise from Mammy will be really helping too, you must be feeling really proud of yourself too Hun.

And handling a birthday party and ST in one day! 

Just carry on as you are Sweetie  Just a little head's up for you though. With ST sometimes LO is doing really well but after a few days for some unknown reason they can regress right back to the start. It usually only last 1 or 2 night, then things get better than before. So, it may not happen, but I wanted to mention it just in case, as I would hate for you to crumble under the strain 

x.