Author Topic: 30 minute naps - getting worse now down to 20! (Read 2904 times)

bluebell568 · « **on:** January 26, 2015, 19:54:09 pm »

Please can someone remind me what 30 minute naps usually signal and how best to try and lengthen them.

Today's routine

6:45am wake up
7:00 breastfeed
8:00 baby porridge and fruit
9:15 nap
9:45 awake
11:00 breastfeed
12:05 nap
12:45 awake
1:30 veg puree
2:30 breastfeed
3:35 nap
4:05 awake
4:30 breastfeed
5:30 pear puree
6:50 bedtime breastfeed
7:30 asleep in cot

He has reflux, food allergies and has had a tongue tie revised twice so the last 6 months have been tricky and lots of non-accidental parenting has been used to help him sleep. Everything is now pretty much under control so we need to get the sleep sorted.
At night he sometimes wakes 7 times a night, on a good night he goes back to sleep between wakings. On a bad night, when the reflux is bad he ends up sleeping upright on my shoulder for hours.

Any tips would be very gratefully received.

*Ali* · « **Reply #1 on:** January 26, 2015, 23:29:03 pm »

Typically 30 min naps are OT but looking at your routine I wonder if it is UT because his first A time is short. I'd try pushing that first nap later by 15 mins or so and see if you get a longer nap.

It could also be that he is OT from the broken nights sleep though as it sounds like he never gets a restorative sleep. What is he like when awake? Is he happy or grizzly during that first A time?

Or it could just be discomfort from the reflux and so he isn't able to transition to the next sleep cycle. Is he on meds for the reflux? It sounds quite bad and not under control and that will always make sleep difficult.

Do you have any method of helping him get a longer nap such as wearing him in a wrap/sling/carrier or taking him out for a walk in the pushchair?

bluebell568 · « **Reply #2 on:** January 27, 2015, 09:48:14 am »

Hi Ali, thanks for your ideas. I've put him down a little later this morning so we'll see how he goes. He is generally happy when he's awake, particularly first thing in the morning. He is on omeprazole for the reflux and we are dairy, soya, gluten and egg free. I also give him probiotics. He used to sleep a little longer if I put him in the sling but I had to keep walking/moving for the entire nap as if I stood still or sat down he would wake up. He sometimes sleeps longer in the pushchair if we keep walking but usually will wake after half an hour.

If he sleeps for half an hour, how long A time would you suggest before the next nap. I find it really hard to follow his sleep cues as he doesn't tend to show any obvious signs of being tired until I take him up to his room and start the nap routine and then he starts rubbing his eyes and looking tired.

Thanks for your help

weaver · « **Reply #3 on:** January 27, 2015, 13:28:36 pm »

What age is he hun?

bluebell568 · « **Reply #4 on:** January 27, 2015, 14:28:09 pm »

Ah yes, sorry I forgot to say he is 6 months old.

He slept for 1 hr 1/2 this morning which I was not expecting! So then I put him down for his second nap after the same length A time and he slept for 30 mins. But he's already had far more day time sleep than normal so I'm happy!

We'll fit in one more short nap today to get him through to bedtime. How much A time should I give him after this 30 min nap?

bluebell568 · « **Reply #5 on:** January 27, 2015, 21:04:31 pm »

Could you glance at today's Easy please

6:45 awake
7:00 breastfeed
8:00 solids
9:25 - 10:55 nap
11:15 breastfeed
12:00 solids
1:45 - 2:15 nap
2:30 breastfeed
4:50 - 5:20 nap (took ages to get him down for this one as 3 yr old kept being noisy!)
5:30 solids
6:45 bedtime breastfeed
7:50 asleep (took much longer to get him to sleep tonight. Usually asleep between 7 and 7:30 but very playful tonight!)

How's it looking? Any suggestions welcome.

weaver · « **Reply #6 on:** January 27, 2015, 21:27:05 pm »

30 min naps often mean overtired. It depends on the baby tho, for the occasional one it's undertired!

At this age, babies are generally dropping that last nap in the afternoon, the catnap, and moving over to two big naps. That being the case, I stopped killing myself to get a CN and just put LO in a sling, or buggy, and let them sleep if they wanted to (just in case that helps with your 3 yo! often had a pleasant stroll with LO1 while LO2 was deciding whether or not to nap!).

What I would suggest is starting to push that AM nap a shade later, and bring the PM nap a little bit earlier, just to start with, until you start getting a good nap in the PM. Just try 15 mins earlier and see what happens. It isn't necessarily the case that all A times are the same length throughout the day - some LOs like a long first A, short middle A, long A to bed, and the variations are endless, and entirely individual. Average A at this age is anywhere between 2.5 hrs and 3 hrs so you probably have some time to play with.

This might help:
All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months

This chat thread on 3-2 is a bit quiet right now but I bet if you post you'll get some responses.
Anyone want to talk about the 3-2 Nap transition? Part 2

HTH!

bluebell568 · « **Reply #7 on:** January 27, 2015, 22:49:59 pm »

Thank you so much. I wish these babies came with a manual. I'll hop over to the 3-2 thread in our next wake up!

*Ali* · « **Reply #8 on:** January 28, 2015, 10:43:13 am »

I'm glad you got a longer nap by pushing the morning A time.

As a rule, after a 30 min nap, I would generally reduce A time by 20-30 mins at 6mo.

It could be that increasing both A times today was too much for him and he needs a bit longer to get used to that longer morning A time before he is ready for a longer second A time as well. I'd maybe try 2hr45 for the first A time and stick with 2hr30 for the second for a few days and them maybe try increasing the second A time again.

bluebell568 · « **Reply #9 on:** February 11, 2015, 21:03:25 pm »

So the hour and a half nap we had a couple of weeks ago was a one off. His 30 minute naps are now down to 20 or 25 minutes and it is getting harder to get him to settle to sleep. He is still waking up to 7 times a night.

I think he is chronically over tired. I can't even get him to take a longer nap by holding him on me, wearing him in the sling or driving him in the car.

I really want to help him settle to sleep in his bed rather than rocking or feeding him to sleep but each time I try he just gets upset and fights sleep. I'm still confused about what time to put him down. I'd be grateful for any help please.

weaver · « **Reply #10 on:** February 11, 2015, 21:07:50 pm »

Can you tell us where you are now with A times? I know, I know they are probably all over the shop, but just tell us how today went. He's 7 mos now? Average A at that age is about 2hr 45- 3 hr 15, and most babies will be doing just two naps, the cat nap is gone!

bluebell568 · « **Reply #11 on:** February 11, 2015, 22:01:25 pm »

OK, the A times are affected quite a bit by how long it takes me to get him to fall asleep. He still needs 3 naps because they are so short.
So today we had

6:35 awake
9:40 - 10:00 nap
1:40 - 2:10 nap I know this was too long A time but I had to collect my daughter from nursery at 1 so couldn't put him down in his bed. I assumed he'd have a nap in the car but didn't
4:40 - 5:00 nap
7:20 asleep

bluebell568 · « **Reply #12 on:** February 14, 2015, 12:11:59 pm »

Now he won't nap at all. What am I doing wrong? Why can't I do this? All the other posts I read the babies might have bad naps but sleep well at night, or they won't sleep on their own but in the car they will do 2 hours +. My little boy just won't sleep - at night, in the day, in the car, in the pram, on me, anywhere.

Today he woke at 7.20am. I purposefully didn't plan to do anything today so that I could concentrate on getting him down for his naps. At 10 o'clock I took him up and spent 30 minutes trying to get him to sleep. No joy at all. Brought him downstairs again but he immediately seems tired. Now he's getting near to a feed time so I decided I'd better feed him or he would wake with hunger. So I fed him and despite me trying to keep him awake while he fed, he drifted off for all of 5 minutes. So I tried to put him down for nap again and he won't go to sleep. He thinks he's had a nap because he shut his eyes for 5 minutes. It's now midday and he's not had a nap. And my 3 year old has had to manage on her own all this time while I'm upstairs trying to get the baby to sleep. He was up 4 times in the night including a long wake up from 3:15 until 4:50. I'm beyond exhausted.

*Ali* · « **Reply #13 on:** February 15, 2015, 20:22:14 pm »

That to me sounds like discomfort. Do you think it is time to get a review of the reflux meds? Any chance something hidden is sneaking into his diet?

bluebell568 · « **Reply #14 on:** February 15, 2015, 21:37:31 pm »

I took him to the doctor last Monday to ask about the meds etc. As soon as I mentioned sleep, the doctor immediately said that it wasn't anything to do with his reflux but it was because he hadn't been sleep trained. He started talking about controlled crying. I asked if omeprazole could cause sleep problems and again he dismissed it. I kept saying that I felt he was uncomfortable, squirming, coughing, arching but he'd made up his mind. This morning he managed a 10 minute nap. This afternoon, in desperation to get him sleep, I fed him to sleep then left him on my chest with my nipple right by his mouth so if he woke he could suckle back to sleep. He STILL only slept for half an hour! Total daytime naps today 40minutes! With regard to diet, I'm pretty sure nothing has slipped in. He has been a bit constipated for the last few days but I'm not sure if that's just adjusting to solids. I've cut solids right back today and yesterday. He keeps scratching his ears, he's made them bleed, but I managed to get the doctor to look on them and he said they were fine. His two front teeth are through now and he's not showing signs of teething any more.
At night he sleeps on his side in a Sleepyhead. But when he wakes he has usually turned onto his back. I don't know if he wakes because he's turned onto his back or whether he wakes and then turns as he looks around. Tonight I have used a rolled blanket to wedge him onto his side more so he can't turn onto his back. It might help I don't know.
Thank you for any ideas you might have.

weaver · « **Reply #15 on:** February 16, 2015, 14:14:35 pm »

((HUGS)) lovey for the stress and the fatigue, you must be worn out.

Quote from: bluebell568 on February 15, 2015, 21:37:31 pm

As soon as I mentioned sleep, the doctor immediately said that it wasn't anything to do with his reflux but it was because he hadn't been sleep trained.

(Excuse me while I step out and have 'a word' with the doc.) Frankly, I don't find that very helpful. Is there any way you can speak to another doctor? You say in your first post that things were pretty much sorted, but I would be concerned that if he was still having bad nights with reflux that his meds were not doing their job. I'm going to ask some mamas with reflux experience to come and have a look.

In the meantime, I completely agree that the right thing to do is whatever you think will help him sleep, *if* he will feed to sleep, or anything that looks like it'll help, do try it, though it sounds like he's pretty resistant. Do you have a baby carrier/sling that he could sleep in upright in the daytime? Being upright might help, and OT will be making him wake up a bit more at night too.
Sleep and the reflux baby

ZacsMumme · « **Reply #16 on:** February 16, 2015, 19:24:50 pm »

Hugs Hun, I had a baby like this his nights were horrible even at 8 months. He was in a lot of digestive discomfort and his reflux even on a high dose of meds was uncontrolled because it was a symptom of everything else.
Can I ask what dose of omeprazole he is on?
What solids is he having and how often?
How are his poops? - other than the bit of constipation he's had. Does he get gassy?

What finally worked for us was stopping solids all together for a few weeks and working on helping the gut heal. Probiotics, neocate (he was on prescription formula) and a little bit of his safest food pumpkin. We also added supplements to his bottle but we were under the care of a biomedical pead.

I do think you need to get another drs opinion. The one your seeing clearly isn't listening or understanding

*Liz* · « **Reply #17 on:** February 16, 2015, 19:26:53 pm »

God, I feel like we have very similar babies, just that mine is 11 weeks. 10 min naps, waking after rolling to back in a sleepyhead

.

Was that your GP or a paed??

And what solids are you on?? They are a double edged sword as they could really help him if we can work out what suits yk?

bluebell568 · « **Reply #18 on:** February 17, 2015, 09:41:40 am »

He's currently on 15mg of omeprazole. 10mg in the morning and 5mg in the evening. We started on 5mg last September but it was once we were on 10mg and the dairy and soya were out of my system that we really saw a difference in the day time and he was settled. Naps went from having to be carried round in the sling moving at all times to taking 3x 30 minute naps in his cot (which I was really pleased with as it gave my 3 year old 3x30 minutes of my time). But night sleep was always a problem. The GP agreed to add the 5mg in the evening to see if it helped with sleep. We then tried 5mg in the morning and 10mg at night which led to unsettled days and then 10mg in the morning and 10mg in the evening but nothing seemed to help with the sleep at night. So we have gone back to 10mg am and 5mg pm. I don't want him to be on a higher dose than necessary if it isn't helping and definitely not if it is actually interferring with sleep.

Solids he has some baby porridge and fruit puree for breakfast and then purees for lunch and tea. So far he has had carrot, butternut squash, parnsip, potato, sweet potato, pear, apple, apricot, prunes, melon, avacado and last night some courgette. He's also had a few rice cakes and corn puffs. He doesn't have much at each meal, just a tablespoon or so.

Last night he woke up 5 times each time wanting to feed. It is so hard to tell if wants to feed to soothe the discomfort or if it is just habit now. I think it is a bit of both.

*Liz* · « **Reply #19 on:** February 17, 2015, 11:07:59 am »

What is the baby porridge? Is it wheat/gluten based? Would be nice to introduce a protein source as well wouldn't it? Would help with hunger issues.

Sara is better with solids introduction that I am though so I will let her advise.

Shame you can't do 7.5mg am and pm, but too hard with tablet sizes I guess.

Probably is a mix of comfort/ habit really. TBH my bottle fed refluxer is the same though - wants an oz here and there through the night.

ZacsMumme · « **Reply #20 on:** February 18, 2015, 10:01:10 am »

Quote from: bluebell568 on February 17, 2015, 09:41:40 am

He's currently on 15mg of omeprazole. 10mg in the morning and 5mg in the evening. We started on 5mg last September but it was once we were on 10mg and the dairy and soya were out of my system that we really saw a difference in the day time and he was settled. Naps went from having to be carried round in the sling moving at all times to taking 3x 30 minute naps in his cot (which I was really pleased with as it gave my 3 year old 3x30 minutes of my time). But night sleep was always a problem. The GP agreed to add the 5mg in the evening to see if it helped with sleep. We then tried 5mg in the morning and 10mg at night which led to unsettled days and then 10mg in the morning and 10mg in the evening but nothing seemed to help with the sleep at night. So we have gone back to 10mg am and 5mg pm. I don't want him to be on a higher dose than necessary if it isn't helping and definitely not if it is actually interferring with sleep.

Ok so this may sound weird but my first did fantastic on split losec 10mg morning an night. BUT DS2 was awful with split losec, he needed a full dose in one hit for it to be enough to cover him. I do wonder if you would be better off giving one dose in 24hrs, and trying for the 15 or 20mg for a week to see if this helps or not.... $:-\$

Quote from: *Liz* on February 17, 2015, 11:07:59 am

What is the baby porridge? Is it wheat/gluten based? Would be nice to introduce a protein source as well wouldn't it? Would help with hunger issues.

Also wondered this, be wary of any grains with a really sensitive LO to food. I found Tom really tough because he wasn't even intolerant to some solids but his body just didn't digest anything much too well until he was over 1, and even then it was a bland diet. No soy, wheat, dairy, high fructose foods, sugary foods ... the list goes on. At 2 he can eat almost anything now and I just have to watch his dairy and wheat. Some proteins and safe foods that are also really good - if tolerated (and some babies do not tolerate legumes) are chickpeas, hummus, butter beans or cannelloni beans mashed up. Lean lamb mince (very digestible), veges such as asian greens, pumpkin, carrot, chicken broth if you can make some, banana (if tolerated). It is unfortunately trial and error but I did learn that for Tom LESS was more. He didn't need more solids, he needed less variety and less volume for his body to get used to it. He was a hungry baby too so I had to make sure the quality of his food was good and he had big bottles for longer.
How was he on the pear and apricots...these foods would have really upset Tom and I wonder if some of the sugary fruits are causing gas discomfort at night.
The other thing that is worth looking at is his E .. what time does he have bottles and solids during the day atm (Forgive me if this is back on a prev page)

Quote from: *Liz* on February 17, 2015, 11:07:59 am

Probably is a mix of comfort/ habit really. TBH my bottle fed refluxer is the same though - wants an oz here and there through the night.

Yup....Sometimes too its us that want to just get them back to sleep (well in my house it was) and a bottle did that $:-\$
Can I ask if you find pain meds help at all? - Sometimes they don't but sometimes they really can make a difference and knowing if they do or don't can help identify what is going on sometimes.
What happens if you don't feed... much longer to settle I'm guessing

and LOL Liz, doubt I have any more knowledge than you missy mamma of 3!

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Author Topic: 30 minute naps - getting worse now down to 20! (Read 2904 times)