1yr old - does this sound OT to you?

[Mackjack]

Don't apologise - appreciate your help so much!! Thank you so much - hopefully hear from you later!

[Martini~]

Just a quick thought. Are you going into the last WW or is it too early? We always have a period of very tired kid just shy of stormy period.
Of course he might be also OT after shorter nights and 1.5h naps.

[Mackjack]

TBH, I've never really looked into WWs and don't really know much about them!  so it could be,  I don't know!

He's actually poorly tonight and has just woken a couple of times.  So i guess all bets re sleep are off for the moment.

[jessmum46]

Hi Hun, I'm sorry things are a bit rough right now.  I'm just popping in as an extra set of eyes to see if there's anything different I can offer.  I've read back through but it's a long thread so I wonder if you could just briefly tell me how old LO is right now and what the current routine looks like? ((Hugs))

[Mackjack]

Sure - sorry I know this thread has dragged on!

He is 15 months.

WU about 5.55 - when he was waking after 6 he would be happy to sit in his cot but since he's started EWing again he wakes moaning.

S asleep by about 12.30. I wake him at 1hr 30. Again he used to wake happy but has been really grumpy recently.

BT asleep by about 18.45

He's still taking his sleeping bag off and messing around a little bit at sleep times but nowhere near as much as he was - he can settle within about 10 mins.

[jessmum46]

Is he teething right now?  Have you thought about trying a dream meds (sneak in around 3am?) to see if it helps?

My feeling would be in this situation to rule out overtiredness first.  If he was really LSN I would have thought his EWs and waking from nap would be happy, and since his nap is pretty short for an average 15mo (bear in mind many are still on 2 naps at this age) I would think a trial of an earlier/longer nap may be reasonable, even if just for a few days.  How about putting him down 15-30 mins earlier, you can still cap by waking at the same time as usual if you want but he would have had 1h45-2h nap instead of the 1h30.  Maybe try for a few days and then reassess?  If things get drastically worse you'll know to go in the opposite direction.

Just to compare my DD was by no means high sleep needs, dropped to one nap from around 10/11 months on most days.  But at 15 months was doing WU 6.30/7, nap at 11.45 for anywhere 30 mins (thanks nursery....) to 3h, with a 6/6.30pm BT.  Probably averaging closer to 2h over the week.  So although certainly true LSN babies are around, I would have thought ruling out overtiredness first would be sensible.  It's always easy to cut sleep back again

[Mackjack]

I'm back And I'm a big ball of bad-tempered frustration.

Firstly, Jessmum - so sorry I didn't respond to your advice. TBH, things had levelled out a bit and he was waking happy so I didn't attempt giving him a longer nap. Completely understand why you're suspecting OT but as I say, things seemed ok for a while (and I'm scared of a longer nap causing extra problems!).

Reason I'm back is that he is still fighting/messing about at nap and BT. And he's EW too. I put him down for  sleep and he strips, throws his duvet out of the cot,blows raspberries etc. In fact, when I put him in his cot he won't even lay down, I just have to leave the room with him standing in his cot. The messing about is sometimes over fairly quickly at naptime but at BT it can go on for up to an hour. He is definitely teething at the moment as I can see two molars but I don't believe this is down to teething as it started ages ago and has been going on forever. Recently on some nights he has got quite upset at BT and when I've gone into his room, he's wanted a cuddle, which I've given because I know he's teething - on these occasions, usually the cuddle works and he will go to sleep once I've put him down. There has been the odd night/nap where he's gone straight down easily or just laid there chatting for a few mins before nodding off but this is v rare.

And he's EWing about 5.40/50 in the morning - he seems happy when he wakes though, even on nights where he's not fallen asleep til 8pm because he's been messing about so much.

So I tried cutting his nap from 1hr30 to 1hr 20. He went to bed easily the first night but over the next few days, it made no difference. Then one day, I tried giving him just an hour for a nap but he woke the next morning at 4.40 and I couldn't get him back to sleep til almost 6am. But like I say he was definitely teething then so I don't know if that was the culprit. BTW, I always have to wake him from his naps and he usually seems v tired and sometimeswhen I take him downstairs, he tries to go back to sleep on me.

The routine that seemed to work for a while was:

WU 6.15ish

Nap 12.30 for 1.5hrs

BT 6.30 - asleep about 6.45/7

This is still what I'm aiming for but the messing about makes the S times later. And the WU time is earlier.

I thought I'd try cutting the nap to an hour again so I did that today and he's been messing about for about 40mins. Mix of stripping off/crying.

I don't know what to do but I can't spend every night/nap losing my temper and shouting at him like some sort of monster.

[Mackjack]

To be clear on that last bit - What I meant is, he had an hour's nap today and I've just put him down for BT and he''s been messing about for about 40mins but is asleep now. I think.

[Mackjack]

So he went to sleep about 7.15, brief NW at about 21.15 and woke this morning at 5.50am.
 Nap today was the usual struggle. Didn't play and mess about really but started moaning as soon as I put him in his cot. Threw his duvet out and started doing a moaning intermittent cry. As it wasn't a distressed cry (and I'm fed up of going in and out of his room) I left him to it for 10 mins.  Eventually got fed up and annoyed so went into his room - he looked red and upset but would not lay down.  I got annoyed, laid him down and shouted  and left the room. He moaned twice then went to sleep. I feel awful about losing my temper yet again.  Only let him sleep an hr and when I woke him he was really upset to be woken and has fallen asleep on me.  I'm not sure 1hr naps are the way to go are they?  I'm just giving in today and going to let him sleep as long as he wants   What's the worst that can happen?? He fights BT and wakes up early in the morning anyway!!! I guess he could really give us a treat and throw in a nice long NW....

[Truly Blessed]

Hi Sweetie, I'm away visiting family at the moment, and pushed to get on. Some of my fellow mods are going to keep an eye out and I'll be here whenever I can, I will ask them to take a look at this thread, but maybe a summary would help in the meantime.

Sorry Hun, I'll be back 

x.

[Martini~]

I would think he needs some more sleep now so let us know how long he napped and how the night went Hon.

[jessmum46]

I agree, I do think it all sounds like OT right now. If it's all a mess anyway I would go right back to uncapped naps for a while, keep track and then let's see what comes of it x

[Mackjack]

Hi all. He slept til 14.50 in the end - so about 2 hrs (minus the short period when I woke him after an hr and brought him downstairs and he fell back to sleep).

DH took him up to bed at 18.50. He said he seemed like he "wanted" to go to bed as he picked up a book and lifted his arms to be picked up. Messed about and stripped off once in his cot - DH had to go in his room about 3 times. Asleep just before 19.30.

He's 16 months now,  BTW. Happy to summarise as Sammysmammy said (this is a long thread! ) - what info would be helpful?

[jessmum46]

Typical WU, nap and BT, what time you pd and what time he actually sleeps. How you respond when he's not settling. What he does when he wakes (plays/screams etc) and any issues with NWs xx

[Mackjack]

Sorry for the silence - he has chicken pox so I've been a little preoccupied! Obviously while he's ill, I'm just letting him sleep when he can so I won't be trying to implement any new routine you suggest til he's better.

So to answer your Qs - for a few weeks,  I was letting him have just a 1hr 30 nap. This seemed to help with grumpy EWs he was having. He would maybe mess about a little bit at nap time but be asleep within 10mins. BT he would mess around for longer but it wasn't too bad.So typical EASY looked like this:

WU 6.15
S 12.30 asleep by about 12.40, wu about 14.10
BT 18.30 - asleep by 18.45/19.00
No NWs

But now he is messing about at nap and BT and is WU early (happy) in the morning (around 5.45).  BT is the worst and can take sometimes an hour for him to settle. I put him in his cot and he just stands there so I leave the room. He will then throw his duvet out the cot and take his pyjamas off. He'll blow raspberries, start shaking his cot bars. Eventually he'll start doing a whingy cry until I go in  - like "whinge, whinge, pause, whinge, whinge, pause" etc. Often I can see on the monitor that he's rubbing his eyes too as though tired. When I go in, I dress him, try to interact as little as possible, no eye contact and tell him to lay down - he WILL NOT lay down and is often smiling at me so again I just leave the room and the whole thing repeats. I've tried ignoring him when he's doing the whingy cry but it always eventually leads to a proper cry.

When DH goes to settle him, he more often than not lays straight down and sometimes DH can settle him quite quickly. DH tends to go in as soon as the whinging starts (this doesn't work for me) but I think he should try to wait as long as possible til he does a proper cry as otherwise it's like it's becoming a game i.e. "I whinge a bit and mummy/daddy come running".

I tried cutting his nap to an hour for two days running. The first day it made no difference to BT/WU time. The second day, as I mentioned in a post above, he was absolutely shattered when I woke him and fell back asleep on me BUT it was the next day that he came down with chicken pox so I don't know if that played a part.

So EASY at the moment looks something like this

WU 5.45
S PD at 12.30 - asleep by about 13.00 for 1hr 30
BT PD at 18.30 asleep by about 19.30

I just don't know what else to do. Is he OT after all these weeks of being fine on a 1hr 30 nap? Does he need to nap longer? Does nap/BT need to be later? Honestly, I get so, so frustrated by it, I've considered not letting him have a nap at all but I know that he can't possibly be dropping his nap so young.